Questions for the religious

kudzu said:
This will explain it.
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the problem with that is it totally ignores the history of Israel......sorry.....Judaism has always been a monotheistic religion.....I will concede there were people in the middle east that did not worship YHWH.....that's why God told the Israelites to drive them out.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the problem with that is it totally ignores the history of Israel......sorry.....Judaism has always been a monotheistic religion.....I will concede there were people in the middle east that did not worship YHWH.....that's why God told the Israelites to drive them out.....
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You talking about Joshua? That didn't happen either... The Canaanite cities prospered and paid tribute to pharoah.. They have been excavated and were never disturbed or interrupted.
 
kudzu said:
You talking about Joshua? That didn't happen either... The Canaanite cities prospered and paid tribute to pharoah.. They have been excavated and were never disturbed or interrupted.
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lol....sure.....and I suppose that atheists didn't provide you with that information?.......
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
It sounds as though you're more eager to prove the Bible translation shit and your own alleged '"HIGHER LEARNING" skills' = you are right and everyone else is wrong, than you are in discussing the points I made in my post.

Again, I'm done. Enjoy your life.
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And indeed YOU ARE DONE.....why? Simply because you attempt to pin wings on a hog does not make that hog a bird. What's this the 3rd time YOU HAVE BEEN DONE? :laugh:

A fact is a fact. www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript........an "OPINION" is subjective void of any objective findings of factual evidence. As the facts point out....a "translation" is not based upon the opinion of anyone but rather a scientific process known as a "comparative analysis" that consists first of applying the laws of logical reference when comparing any data in order to determine the factual truth in relation to the subject of study. This process is used throughout the scientific world when searching for evidential findings of fact in CIMINOLOGY, FORENSICS, ECONOMICS, ...etc.

As the scientific facts point out. A "valid" translation from Hebrew, to Greek and then to any other language around globe.....transmits the same contextual integrity as any of the original scriptural Books found in the Holy Bible...especially a valid translation from the New Testament where the universal language of choice used by the authors was GREEK. ;)

Science Confirms the promise made by the Christ in the 1st century. "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law, until all is fulfilled." -- Matthew 5:18. The same promise applies to the New Testament Law of Grace. To this day the Scriptures (Law) remain unbroken.

Are there "mistakes" found in our modern translations? Of course...why? They were translated by MEN....there are famous mistakes/typeos....but these mistakes are easily found, why? All one has to do is compare the error with the subject matter and remaining text and the error sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb.
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
lol....sure.....and I suppose that atheists didn't provide you with that information?.......
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No.. serious scholars and archaeologists provided the information. Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan in the Exodus years and Egyptian garrisons were stationed in Sinai.. Canaanite towns were well established and prosperous in the business of mining, metallury and pottery making.

Solomon never had copper mines.. Those were Canaanite and copper was an essential commodity from the beginning of the bronze age..
 
Ralph said:
And indeed YOU ARE DONE.....why? Simply because you attempt to pin wings on a hog does not make that hog a bird. What's this the 3rd time YOU HAVE BEEN DONE? :laugh:

A fact is a fact. www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript........an "OPINION" is subjective void of any objective findings of factual evidence. As the facts point out....a "translation" is not based upon the opinion of anyone but rather a scientific process known as a "comparative analysis" that consists first of applying the laws of logical reference when comparing any data in order to determine the factual truth in relation to the subject of study. This process is used throughout the scientific world when searching for evidential findings of fact in CIMINOLOGY, FORENSICS, ECONOMICS, ...etc.

As the scientific facts point out. A "valid" translation from Hebrew, to Greek and then to any other language around globe.....transmits the same contextual integrity as any of the original scriptural Books found in the Holy Bible...especially a valid translation from the New Testament where the universal language of choice used by the authors was GREEK. ;)
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Then you must be familiar with Samuel Noah Kramer's work over 50 years.
 
kudzu said:
Then you must be familiar with Samuel Noah Kramer's work over 50 years.
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Truth: There can be many opinion based theories in relation to any subject. Take 100 of those speculations that can be supported by fragmented archeological finds...... you can have only "one truth" out of any given number....or you can have the entire 100 be wrong. The truth cannot exist in more than one reality according to one of the first laws of logic....the Excluded Middle. Why believe and accept as truth the historical record found to exist in the Judeo/Christian Religion? Because its never been subject to any type of confirmed falsehood based upon Applied Science or History Actual.

Please explain how an attempted historical record application from antiquated Sumerian literature negates any truth found in the Holy Bible. It does not. Put the scriptures to the test and present any archeological find that proves one historical record found in scripture to be in error. Recorded history only has a range of some 5000 years....most certainly many histories recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures came from an oral historical record, but that does not make any of the inspired record false.

Why accept the Holy Scriptures as a truthful historical record? Its called "prima facie" truth.....a truth based upon of having a lack of any reasonable doubt void of any objective evidence to the contrary. Meaning? The fact that the Bible can be tested by History Actual and Applied Science (any record of that which is not self professed to be SUPER NATURAL.....that exists outside the bounds of Science to either prove or disprove based upon the laws of physics that God put into place upon creation).....The majority of the writings can be tested for such historical and scientific truth and the record has never been found lacking in TRUTH.

More? We know that the Bible was written by at least 40 different authors, many uneducated, some educated, some kings, some simple carpenters, some simple fishermen, some physicians and some lawyers of that time period. We know from History Actual (that the record covered some 5000 years in total) but was written over a 1500 year period.

It claims to be divinely inspired. What would you expect from a collection of Books that were self professed to be inspired by the God of Creation void of corruption? You would expect total agreement among all the books. These Books from different authors all agree on one subject matter. ALL MEN SIN....even the ones that were inspired to write this historical record found in the Holy Bible. The Bible itself contains all the history, the Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. What man made book on history would include all the skeletons in the closet? Not one.....history by men is always recorded by those who are victorious to those they have subdued....you can find no wrong. Just look at the History of the Untied States.....which contains many outrageous lies and omissions of facts.

If you took 40 different men and told them to present an accurate historical record of just one event.....you would come up with 40 different stories and thousands of direct contradictions of historical facts based upon the personal opinions of the ones writing this supposed history of something like the Civil War, WW1, or WW2...etc.,

Moses is credited with recording the first 5 books of the Holy Bible. Clearly Moses was no scholar in relation to Hebrew history as he was educated by the Egyptians nor did he posses any expert writing skills....just read some the record of Moses, for example Ex. 4:10 where he professes to being ineloquent. He recorded his own sins (Numbers 10:11-12). The adulterous sins of David and Bathsheba (2 Sam. 11,12)

How do men record their histories? They always come out smelling like roses. All these 40 some authors agree.....men sin, but all agree ONE MAN did not sin, Jesus the Christ....i.e, the Messiah, the Son of God, the son of man. -- 1 Cor. 1:18-31.

Take the record of David. It included all his dirty secrets, his hypocrisy. That record is included for a reason, because its THE TRUTH. And what nation (like the nation of Biblical Israel) would include in its history a Book like that recorded by Jeremiah? That Book made Israel look foolish and stupid. Most of the 39 books of the Old Testament make Israel look bad in relation to the laws set forth by God. The record includes unheeded prophecies/warnings like the book of Isiah (53:1-3).

When men make up stories they are the center of attention, the perfect hero that overcomes....yet all the kings in this actual history are found lacking in righteousness in some form or another.

Would Human Wisdom have prophesied about a Messiah that would come and be rejected by his own people and be the sacrificial lamb that would offer salvation to the world? No men would have you believe that Judaism is still the law of the land today and you must abide by that covenant that was fulfilled by the Messiah. Yet....they refuse to offer animal sacrifice, be ruled by a king appointed by God, or have their laws enforced by a tribe of ROYAL PREISTS. I wonder why? Sound familiar? They are ruled by a government established by MEN.

The Bible records a prophecy that was fulfilled due to the rejection of the Christ by Israel.....Jesus warned them that very generation would not pass until the city of Jerusalem would be totally destroyed by outside forces, and that prophecy is record by history actual. Rome destroyed the holy city of Jerusalem and eventually the nation of Biblical Israel in totality in the first century AD. The nation of Israel was warned that it would be broken up and never be made whole again.

Now look at some other supposed HOLY BOOKS from around he world. Such as the Quran.....it has many contradictions within its pages. It profess to the truth that the Holy Bible is a book from God....yet it rejects many of the precepts found therein. It imposes rules on everyone except the one that drafted it. Muhammad. Thus it a book that you expect to be authored by a man with human wisdom.

Take another example of a supposed Holy Book. The Book of Mormon. All its record is bound directly to just one version of the Holy Bible...the King James Version translation....strange that was the in vogue translation of the day when that supposed inspired record was first drafted....after the King James Bibles declares that we have the complete Bible Record, all that is needed to find salvation -- Jude 3.

This particular book records many of the false histories of our native American tribes...that have since been debunked in modern history, as if the book was taking history from the point of view from Free Masons..etc.,


As the scriptures declare....put the God of Creation to the test.
 
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Ralph said:
Truth: There can be many opinion based theories in relation to any subject. Take 100 of those speculations that can be supported by fragmented archeological finds...... you can have only "one truth" out of any given number....or you can have the entire 100 be wrong. The truth cannot exist in more than one reality according to one of the first laws of logic....the Excluded Middle. Why believe and accept as truth the historical record found to exist in the Judeo/Christian Religion? Because its never been subject to any type of confirmed falsehood based upon Applied Science or History Actual.

Please explain how an attempted historical record application from antiquated Sumerian literature negates any truth found in the Holy Bible. It does not. Put the scriptures to the test and present any archeological find that proves one historical record found in scripture to be in error. Recorded history only has a range of some 5000 years....most certainly many histories recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures came from an oral historical record, but that does not make any of the inspired record false.

Why accept the Holy Scriptures as a truthful historical record? Its called "prima facie" truth.....a truth based upon of having a lack of any reasonable doubt void of any objective evidence to the contrary. Meaning? The fact that the Bible can be tested by History Actual and Applied Science (any record of that which is not self professed to be SUPER NATURAL.....that exists outside the bounds of Science to either prove or disprove based upon the laws of physics that God put into place upon creation).....The majority of the writings can be tested for such historical and scientific truth and the record has never been found lacking in TRUTH.

More? We know that the Bible was written by at least 40 different authors, many uneducated, some educated, some kings, some simple carpenters, some simple fishermen, some physicians and some lawyers of that time period. We know from History Actual (that the record covered some 5000 years in total) but was written over a 1500 year period.

It claims to be divinely inspired. What would you expect from a collection of Books that were self professed to be inspired by the God of Creation void of corruption? You would expect total agreement among all the books. These Books from different authors all agree on one subject matter. ALL MEN SIN....even the ones that were inspired to write this historical record found in the Holy Bible. The Bible itself contains all the history, the Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. What man made book on history would include all the skeletons in the closet? Not one.....history by men is always recorded by those who are victorious to those they have subdued....you can find no wrong. Just look at the History of the Untied States.....which contains many outrageous lies and omissions of facts.

If you took 40 different men and told them to present an accurate historical record of just one event.....you would come up with 40 different stories and thousands of direct contradictions of historical facts based upon the personal opinions of the ones writing this supposed history of something like the Civil War, WW1, or WW2...etc.,

Moses is credited with recording the first 5 books of the Holy Bible. Clearly Moses was no scholar in relation to Hebrew history as he was educated by the Egyptians nor did he posses any expert writing skills....just read some the record of Moses, for example Ex. 4:10 where he professes to being ineloquent. He recorded his own sins (Numbers 10:11-12). The adulterous sins of David and Bathsheba (2 Sam. 11,12)

How do men record their histories? They always come out smelling like roses. All these 40 some authors agree.....men sin, but all agree ONE MAN did not sin, Jesus the Christ....i.e, the Messiah, the Son of God, the son of man. -- 1 Cor. 1:18-31.

Take the record of David. It included all his dirty secrets, his hypocrisy. That record is included for a reason, because its THE TRUTH. And what nation (like the nation of Biblical Israel) would include in its history a Book like that recorded by Jeremiah? That Book made Israel look foolish and stupid. Most of the 39 books of the Old Testament make Israel look bad in relation to the laws set forth by God. The record includes unheeded prophecies/warnings like the book of Isiah (53:1-3).

When men make up stories they are the center of attention, the perfect hero that overcomes....yet all the kings in this actual history are found lacking in righteousness in some form or another.

Would Human Wisdom have prophesied about a Messiah that would come and be rejected by his own people and be the sacrificial lamb that would offer salvation to the world? No men would have you believe that Judaism is still the law of the land today and you must abide by that covenant that was fulfilled by the Messiah. Yet....they refuse to offer animal sacrifice, be ruled by a king appointed by God, or have their laws enforced by a tribe of ROYAL PREISTS. I wonder why? Sound familiar? They are ruled by a government established by MEN.

The Bible records a prophecy that was fulfilled due to the rejection of the Christ by Israel.....Jesus warned them that very generation would not pass until the city of Jerusalem would be totally destroyed by outside forces, and that prophecy is record by history actual. Rome destroyed the holy city of Jerusalem and eventually the nation of Biblical Israel in totality in the first century AD. The nation of Israel was warned that it would be broken up and never be made whole again.

Now look at some other supposed HOLY BOOKS from around he world. Such as the Quran.....it has many contradictions within its pages. It profess to the truth that the Holy Bible is a book from God....yet it rejects many of the precepts found therein. It imposes rules on everyone except the one that drafted it. Muhammad. Thus it a book that you expect to be authored by a man with human wisdom.

Take another example of a supposed Holy Book. The Book of Mormon. All its record is bound directly to just one version of the Holy Bible...the King James Version translation....strange that was the in vogue translation of the day when that supposed inspired record was first drafted....after the King James Bibles declares that we have the complete Bible Record, all that is needed to find salvation -- Jude 3.

This particular book records many of the false histories of our native American tribes...that have since been debunked in modern history, as if the book was taking history from the point of view from Free Masons..etc.,


As the scriptures declare....put the God of Creation to the test.
Click to expand...

The point is the Hebrews really had no history or national narrative until they experienced the exile in Babylon and learn the stories of Sumer.

Joshua never had a huge army nor did he conquer the Canaanites and destroy their cities.

Moses is a myth or literary device.. and it their was an exodus, it probably was a trickle of people. And, Moses didn't write the Pentateuche.
 
kudzu said:
The point is the Hebrews really had no history or national narrative until they experienced the exile in Babylon and learn the stories of Sumer.

Joshua never had a huge army nor did he conquer the Canaanites and destroy their cities.

Moses is a myth or literary device.. and it their was an exodus, it probably was a trickle of people. And, Moses didn't write the Pentateuche.
Click to expand...

The point is.....the majority of history was passed down first through an oral path and making a claim void of any archeological findings of fact proves what? Simply because something has not been found YET makes that history a lie? Really? The majority of your parroted attempt to discredit the Bible is based upon "things not found"....I prefer to concentrate on the reality of what the science of Archeology has produced instead of what it has not produced.

Joshua 6 details how the nation of Biblical Israel conquered the double walled city of "Jericho". The bible records that the Israelites marched for 6 days once around the city fortress. On the 7th day they marched around the city 7 times. The priests blew their trumpets, the people shouted and cried out in one voice, and when they did THE WALL FELL DOWN (Joshua 6:20). You claim that this could not have happened because Joshua had no army and never faced such a walled city fortress....yet the science of Archeology tells a different story.

Beginning in 1929 Dr. John Garstang excavated the ancient ruins of Jericho and confirmed the Biblical account of the battle.....with a confirmation that this area was prone to earthquakes with evidence that the walls of the city did fall at one time. Of course you find the seculars screaming bloody murder and making a CLAIM that a consensus OPINION by many other archeologists (void of any findings of factual artifacts) differ as to the date assigned by Dr. Garstang. What's new under the sun? Nothing....some making claims about THINGS not found as if not finding NOTHING disproves anything.

For years the same Consensus opinions called the Bible a book of lies because there had been no evidence of a powerful warlike kingdom mentioned in the scriptures......the Hittites. This nation is mentioned some 48 times in scripture. Again....for years and decades NO ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE existed....so the consensus by the seculars was this made up nation never existed it was just another bible story. Until.........George Smith found the capital city of the Hittites in 1876....a city called Carchemish.

Thus...simply because no evidence has not been found YET...does not preclude a history from being true. Real Science has the mule pulling the plow....not the inversion of attempting to claim that things not in evidence disproves the possibility of truth from existing....i.e., having the mule push the plow. Why should anyone not believe certain parts of the scripts due to a lack of archeological evidence when archeology has proven through the finding of evidence that the biblical account has been truthful? Its called prima facie truth....and it exists until OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE is found that actually contradicts the record.
 
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kudzu said:
The point is the Hebrews really had no history or national narrative until they experienced the exile in Babylon and learn the stories of Sumer.

Joshua never had a huge army nor did he conquer the Canaanites and destroy their cities.

Moses is a myth or literary device.. and it their was an exodus, it probably was a trickle of people. And, Moses didn't write the Pentateuche.
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Israel has a longer history than atheists.........
 
Ralph said:
The point is.....the majority of history was passed down first through an oral path and making a claim void of any archeological findings of fact proves what? Simply because something has not been found YET makes that history a lie? Really? The majority of your parroted attempt to discredit the Bible is based upon "things not found"....I prefer to concentrate on the reality of what the science of Archeology has produced instead of what it has not produced.

Joshua 6 details how the nation of Biblical Israel conquered the double walled city of "Jericho". The bible records that the Israelites marched for 6 days once around the city fortress. On the 7th day they marched around the city 7 times. The priests blew their trumpets, the people shouted and cried out in one voice, and when they did THE WALL FELL DOWN (Joshua 6:20). You claim that this could not have happened because Joshua had no army and never faced such a walled city fortress....yet the science of Archeology tells a different story.

Beginning in 1929 Dr. John Garstang excavated the ancient ruins of Jericho and confirmed the Biblical account of the battle.....with a confirmation that this area was prone to earthquakes with evidence that the walls of the city did fall at one time. Of course you find the seculars screaming bloody murder and making a CLAIM that a consensus OPINION by many other archeologists (void of any findings of factual artifacts) differ as to the date assigned by Dr. Garstang. What's new under the sun? Nothing....some making claims about THINGS not found as if not finding NOTHING disproves anything.

For years the same Consensus opinions called the Bible a book of lies because there had been no evidence of a powerful warlike kingdom mentioned in the scriptures......the Hittites. This nation is mentioned some 48 times in scripture. Again....for years and decades NO ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE existed....so the consensus by the seculars was this made up nation never existed it was just another bible story. Until.........George Smith found the capital city of the Hittites in 1876....a city called Carchemish.

Thus...simply because no evidence has not been found YET...does not preclude a history from being true. Real Science has the mule pulling the plow....not the inversion of attempting to claim that things not in evidence disproves the possibility of truth from existing....i.e., having the mule push the plow. Why should anyone not believe certain parts of the scripts due to a lack of archeological evidence when archeology has proven through the finding of evidence that the biblical account has been truthful? Its called prima facie truth....and it exists until OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE is found that actually contradicts the record.
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Have you ever been to Jericho? Its way below sea level and has been inhabited off and on for 11,000 years.. First evidence is of the Natufian culture. There are seven levels of ruins because it has been felled by earthquakes, not horns, many times over the years.

Exodus is a myth. The Bible says that there were 700,000 able bodied men .. Unless they left their wives, children, parents and sisters behind in Egypt.. they numbered 3 million plus livestock... and two midwives.

Lets say a bare minimum of two goats per person makes 6 million livestock.. and there is no water or pasture in Sinai.... and the climate hasn't changed in 3000 years.

That was 2/3rds of the population of Egypt... yet the Egyptians never noticed.
 
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