Socrates and Jesus

Cypress said:
thanks for that insight

I do not think it is quite accurate to say Socrates was openly hostile to Athenian democracy. Though that is what his enemies who wanted him executed would have the citizens of Athens believe.

In Plato's Republic, Socrates identifies democracy as one of the three forms of "good" government, along with aristocracy, and monarchy. The bad forms of governments were tyranny, oligarchy, anarchy. According to Plato, Socrates did have many criticisms of Athenian democracy, that is was inferior to a well run aristocracy --- but at the end of the day he and Plato knew that the freedom of speech and freedom of conscience they enjoyed would probably only be found in a democracy.
Click to expand...
It’s interesting that he would consider monarchy a good forum of government being there are both great and evil monarchs.
 
Phantasmal said:
He may have been an itinerant preacher, but I believe his status and influence were elevated by Paul and then Constantine.
Click to expand...
too right you are.

Definitely. Jesus was probably a peasant from the provincial backwater of Galilee, and his ministry probably only had a couple dozen followers. In that sense, Paul took his message and, as you rightly state, he and Constantine really were the ones responsible for the global reach of Christianity.
 
Phantasmal said:
It’s interesting that he would consider monarchy a good forum of government being there are both great and evil monarchs.
Click to expand...

True.

In the Republic, the idea was to have incorruptible philosopher-kings; people of unimpeachable virtue rule as monarchs
 
Cypress said:
thanks for that insight

I do not think it is quite accurate to say Socrates was openly hostile to Athenian democracy. Though that is what his enemies who wanted him executed would have the citizens of Athens believe.

In Plato's Republic, Socrates identifies democracy as one of the three forms of "good" government, along with aristocracy, and monarchy. The bad forms of governments were tyranny, oligarchy, anarchy. According to Plato, Socrates did have many criticisms of Athenian democracy, that is was inferior to a well run aristocracy --- but at the end of the day he and Plato knew that the freedom of speech and freedom of conscience they enjoyed would probably only be found in a democracy.
Click to expand...

It is a clear fact though that Socrates supporters and students tended to come very largely from the Athenian aristocracy, though there were the odd exceptions. After what had been happening in Athens, that was not something that made for easy survival any more than being unenthusiastic for Roman rule did in Palestine, and clearly Socrates deliberate refusal to survive by proposing a lighter sentence and not going into exile deserve comparison with the events following on from the Entry into Jerusalem.

Along with the Buddha, I should say, these two seem to me to be the historical persons I find most interesting and most worth digging under the later detritus to learn more about.
 
Cypress said:
too right you are.

Definitely. Jesus was probably a peasant from the provincial backwater of Galilee, and his ministry probably only had a couple dozen followers. In that sense, Paul took his message and, as you rightly state, he and Constantine really were the ones responsible for the global reach of Christianity.
Click to expand...
I have not studied the philosophers, I’ve read a few books on them, but my reading mostly centered on Judaism and early Christianity. My current interests centers around the present, history in the making.
 
TexanManWithPlans said:
I'm unsure what you're driving at. I never denied the existence of Christianity in Ethiopia.
Click to expand...

You claimed Jesus never existed. :dunno:

If Jesus never existed, how was there Christianity in Ethiopia?

the-stages-of-derp-dog-version_o_1221263.webp
 
Phantasmal said:
I have not studied the philosophers, I’ve read a few books on them, but my reading mostly centered on Judaism and early Christianity. My current interests centers around the present, history in the making.
Click to expand...
I always appreciate you and your boundless curiosity
 
Iolo/Penderyn said:
It is a clear fact though that Socrates supporters and students tended to come very largely from the Athenian aristocracy, though there were the odd exceptions. After what had been happening in Athens, that was not something that made for easy survival any more than being unenthusiastic for Roman rule did in Palestine, and clearly Socrates deliberate refusal to survive by proposing a lighter sentence and not going into exile deserve comparison with the events following on from the Entry into Jerusalem.

Along with the Buddha, I should say, these two seem to me to be the historical persons I find most interesting and most worth digging under the later detritus to learn more about.
Click to expand...

I completely agree that Socrates and Plato were predisposed to a rule by the aristocracy and had their reasons to harbor doubts about the Athenian democracy.

You and I are on the same page in finding Socrates" Jesus, and Siddhartha Guatama to be among the most compelling historical figures of antiquity. Jesus and Siddhartha seemingly have parallels too, as their message was one of individual spiritual liberation, a proto democratic posture, in the face of the elitist and communal practices of Greco Roman world and the Vedic Brahmanistic tradition
 
TexanManWithPlans said:
Jesus didn't exist, though. Remove the magic tricks and all you have left is Essene philosophy and Jewish mysticism. Oh, and John's gospel adds in some Hellenstic philosophy.
Click to expand...

I don't think it matters whether He had an actual physical existence or not. 2,000 years shows that His philosophy permeates Western thought.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
My requisite non-sequitur of the day [less tolerant members might call it an attempted thread-jacking, but it's not intended that way]:

Don't you hate the term "Platonic" for a non-physical friendship between members of opposite gender?
Who knows that much about Plato's personal friendships with women to make his name a word for the practice?
He probably didn't sleep with them, given that he's thought to have been gay, but what did he do with them?
We may be using his name not knowing that he was into all sorts of stuff that didn't involve actual vaginal penetration but might still be considered indelicate, even if not sexual.

Let's come up with a better word to describe a friendship with a member of the opposite sex that's rather similar to the friendships we have with members of our own sex.
Or is a word for that even needed?
Click to expand...

"Friends without benefits"? Heheheh.
 
Matt Dillon said:
You claimed Jesus never existed. :dunno:

If Jesus never existed, how was there Christianity in Ethiopia?
Click to expand...

That is terrible logic and reasoning.

The Roman pagan religions extended across the Mediterranean world, but I doubt Jupiter or Venus ever existed.

Leave the historicity of Jesus up to trained scholars of antiquity.
 
Cypress said:
Jesus and Socrates invite comparison
Click to expand...

a few problems with your comparison.....

Neither Socrates or Jesus published
Click to expand...

the simple fact is, no one prior to the inventions of Gutenberg "published" anything......the words of both ARE published......otherwise you could not compare them.....
his kingdom of God was in the individual’s soul
Click to expand...
Jesus' kingdom of God was the entire universe......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
a few problems with your comparison.....



the simple fact is, no one prior to the inventions of Gutenberg "published" anything......the words of both ARE published......otherwise you could not compare them.....

Jesus' kingdom of God was the entire universe......
Click to expand...

I am only going to indulge your petty word games with one and only one response.

To publish means to make available to the public. Treatises, epic poems, and manuscripts were hand copied and distributed, aka published, to the interested reading public in the 5th century BCE.

Processor Fears is clearly making reference to the King James Gospel of Luke, which testifies that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you.
 
Iolo/Penderyn said:
I think the key differences were that Jesus stood for working people and his first followers shared all things in common whereas Socrates was heavily in with the oligarchs and disliked democracy, which is why the Athenians saw him off after they'd suffered the Thirty Tyrants..
Click to expand...

What does "heavily in with the oligarchs mean?" If he was, why didn't they help him?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top