Super Freak

[Chapdog]

Yeah, and some of them had no chance to go to college, were raised by drug addicts, parents who beat them every night, had to go to work right out of high school, or drop out and go to work to feed themselves, didn’t even know how to apply for a loan to go to college…you think you didn’t have advantages, you’re wrong. Your skin color and gender are advantages right off. If your father didn’t abandon you, that’s another advantage. If they didn’t beat you, that’s another advantage. If your parents took an interest in your homework and your school grades, that’s another advantage. If you weren’t sexually abused by your uncle that’s another advantage. If your mother and father, or mother or father, weren’t living in absolute poverty, you grew up viewing living above poverty as the norm. As attainable, for you…that’s another advantage. If your mother wasn’t a crack whore, that’s another advantage. If your father wasn’t an alcoholic, that’s another advantage. If your parents were the kind who helped you fill out college apps, that’s another advantage. If your parents told you from when you were young, that a college education was important, that’s another advantage.

There’s a million more. Few have all of them, but most on this board had enough of them.

My father lived in the projects with his alcoholic ww2vet dad who beat him daily. Does that count? he went on to get a Masters in engineering.

So sure I didn't have a shit childhood besides being in a cancer ward for a few years, but for every single person with the situations above you talk about there are 100+ kids who didn't deal with anything horrible as children and are just plain lazy as i explained.

I just don't buy the argument.

 

[cawacko]

You’re in the top 2 percent of earners for a reason Chap – because there are only 2 percent of Americans who are there. You believe that it’s because you worked hard- as if the guy working painting roofs isn’t working harder than you, of course he is. You believe it’s because only 2 percent of Americans want to be where you are maybe, I don’t know. But if you are convinced that most Americans who are working and living in poverty, aren’t working harder than you ever have or ever will, you’re fooling yourself. If this whole thing crashes you may find out what hard work is. Cawacko may find out what hard work is. Neither of you know what hard work is today though. Maybe you worked in a fast food place when you were 17 and you think that qualifies you. Be 45 and have to go earn your living with your hands, with your bad knees, with your back, through physical labor, no end in sight. Those are the guys that get pissed on in this country every day, always have, always will. So I don't begrudge them a little payback. I understand why they may take that pleasure. We don't have money to give them health care, but we always have money to bail out the 2 percenters.

You call that a working society, I call it a fucking crime.

I bet I barely finished in the top 25% of wage earners last year. While there is nothing wrong with that considering where I live and its costs I'm sure not living large.

I've done manual labor and it sucks. Hence my inspiration to study and go to school and not do that kind of work. There are people doing hard manual labor making a hell of a lot more money than I do.

 

[Onceler]

Too many stereotypes on both sides. No doubt, some poor people are lazy, and some who are rich don't "earn" it. But for every one of 'em, I'm sure there are plenty who work their tail off on the lower end, and plenty who earn it & then some on the upper.

We don't live in a country w/ equal opportunity, which is one of the biggest reasons I usually vote Democrat. The GOP's "every man for himself" philosophy only works if everyone has an equal starting point, and they don't. Education is such a big part of this. If our only goal as a society was to make an excellent education affordable & available to all, it would change everything....

 

[Damocles]

Well, getting back to the original thread topic, I will say this: the market closed up 500 pts. (and I think SF had said it would go down another 500).

They're saying it's because they think another bailout will pass, but it just goes to show ya; I don't think anyone really has a handle on this. It's worse than predicting the weather...

Irrationality is the only constant in the stock market. Hence you work the averages.

 

[uscitizen]

You’re in the top 2 percent of earners for a reason Chap – because there are only 2 percent of Americans who are there. You believe that it’s because you worked hard- as if the guy working painting roofs isn’t working harder than you, of course he is. You believe it’s because only 2 percent of Americans want to be where you are maybe, I don’t know. But if you are convinced that most Americans who are working and living in poverty, aren’t working harder than you ever have or ever will, you’re fooling yourself. If this whole thing crashes you may find out what hard work is. Cawacko may find out what hard work is. Neither of you know what hard work is today though. Maybe you worked in a fast food place when you were 17 and you think that qualifies you. Be 45 and have to go earn your living with your hands, with your bad knees, with your back, through physical labor, no end in sight. Those are the guys that get pissed on in this country every day, always have, always will. So I don't begrudge them a little payback. I understand why they may take that pleasure. We don't have money to give them health care, but we always have money to bail out the 2 percenters.

You call that a working society, I call it a fucking crime.

 

[Topspin]

The technicals are broken. We will hit 8000 before we get back to 11,500. This is a dead cat bounce. Nothing more. Nothing underneath it.

this is comical, if you put your money where your mouth is you'd be a broke ass broker.

 

[Cancel7]

I bet I barely finished in the top 25% of wage earners last year. While there is nothing wrong with that considering where I live and its costs I'm sure not living large.

I've done manual labor and it sucks. Hence my inspiration to study and go to school and not do that kind of work. There are people doing hard manual labor making a hell of a lot more money than I do.

Your answer and Cawacko's is exactly why the average working guy is saying "Fuck you" on the bailout. The same thign you tell them when we talk about how many millions of Americans have no health insurance. Fuck you. Well now you are getting it back. May be right, may be wrong, but it's very understandable, and I'm not crying over it. Maybe you and Chap shouldn't either. They have every right to feel the same way about Chap's six figure loss, as he does about their problems. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps boys!

 

[cawacko]

Your answer and Cawacko's is exactly why the average working guy is saying "Fuck you" on the bailout. The same thign you tell them when we talk about how many millions of Americans have no health insurance. Fuck you. Well now you are getting it back. May be right, may be wrong, but it's very understandable, and I'm not crying over it. Maybe you and Chap shouldn't either. They have every right to feel the same way about Chap's six figure loss, as he does about their problems. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps boys!

That makes no sense, I only gave one answer. And I'm suppose to be angry that some construction worker who makes more than me tells me to fuck off? Ok. And you know what I am trying to do something about it. You don't hear me bitching about someone making more than me. I don't hate anyone for that. I went two years without insurance like a lot of other people have. Doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else. I'm working right now and I will be economically successful. Might take me longer than others to achieve it but so be it. But I don't need your sympathy or patronization because you make more money.

 

[Cancel7]

That makes no sense, I only gave one answer. And I'm suppose to be angry that some construction worker who makes more than me tells me to fuck off? Ok. And you know what I am trying to do something about it. You don't hear me bitching about someone making more than me. I don't hate anyone for that. I went two years without insurance like a lot of other people have. Doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else. I'm working right now and I will be economically successful. Might take me longer than others to achieve it but so be it. But I don't need your sympathy or patronization because you make more money.

1) I doubt most construction workers make more than you do. I know that here anyway, wages have really fallen for them.

2) I hope you are economically successful.

3) I in no way feel sorry for you, and doubt that I make more money than you do anyway. If I do, it's because of the money I earn with my side business, which counting that, ok maybe I do. Now. But that's a new development for me.

4) If I patronize you it's not because I think I am in economically superior to you, it's because I believe I am intellectually superior to you, but I believe that about most people, and this in no way makes you special.

5) I am only trying to get across that it's the top 2% for a reason. 2% of Americans are there, 98% are not. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this, but rarely is it because of laziness. Maybe a time of economic collapse, occuring after years of historically rising inequality, which I have always believed is unsustainable, would be a good time to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. Or maybe we should just continue on marching off the cliff, and crying over Chap's (and i don't mean to pick on him, i think he's a decent person) lost 6 figures, and the losses of people who have much more than him.

I don't know.

 

[uscitizen]

If everyone just worked hard and had a college education they could have an above average income ?

this seems to be the thoughts of some here.

 

[cawacko]

1) I doubt most construction workers make more than you do. I know that here anyway, wages have really fallen for them.

2) I hope you are economically successful.

3) I in no way feel sorry for you, and doubt that I make more money than you do anyway. If I do, it's because of the money I earn with my side business, which counting that, ok maybe I do. Now. But that's a new development for me.

4) If I patronize you it's not because I think I am in economically superior to you, it's because I believe I am intellectually superior to you, but I believe that about most people, and this in no way makes you special.

5) I am only trying to get across that it's the top 2% for a reason. 2% of Americans are there, 98% are not. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this, but rarely is it because of laziness. Maybe a time of economic collapse, occuring after years of historically rising inequality, which I have always believed is unsustainable, would be a good time to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. Or maybe we should just continue on marching off the cliff, and crying over Chap's (and i don't mean to pick on him, i think he's a decent person) lost 6 figures, and the losses of people who have much more than him.

I don't know.

I was speaking more patronizing in the economic way. Having someone think they are smarter doesn't bother me.

Shit, I just wrote a long ass post and had to delete it when my boss walked by. Fuck me.

 

[Socrtease]

I was speaking more patronizing in the economic way. Having someone think they are smarter doesn't bother me.

Shit, I just wrote a long ass post and had to delete it when my boss walked by. Fuck me.

Does it bother you when someone thinks that their football team in Oregon is better than yours in Southern Cal?

 

[cawacko]

Does it bother you when someone thinks that their football team in Oregon is better than yours in Southern Cal?

That's fucking it Soc. When 'SC makes it to the championship game in Miami this year (well technically next year) and wins I'm coming to find your ass and you will lick my nuts. And I will prominently post the picture I take on uschaters.com!

 

[Damocles]

That's fucking it Soc. When 'SC makes it to the championship game in Miami this year (well technically next year) and wins I'm coming to find your ass and you will lick my nuts. And I will prominently post the picture I take on uschaters.com!

Cartman? Is that you?

 

[cawacko]

Cartman? Is that you?

that was my last response to him when I said I would kick him "square in the nuts". I actually credited Cartman with the quote.

 

[Chapdog]

5)Maybe a time of economic collapse, occuring after years of historically rising inequality, which I have always believed is unsustainable, would be a good time to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. Or maybe we should just continue on marching off the cliff, and crying over Chap's (and i don't mean to pick on him, i think he's a decent person) lost 6 figures, and the losses of people who have much more than him.

I don't know.

what good would soul searching do for us besides drain a bunch of peoples retirement accounts?

I think your view of people like me is warped to be honest with you. 1) im not top 2%. I happen to have saved allot at a young age out of shire sacrifice but most definitely i am no big boy. 2) this assault on wallstreet and home value would kill baby boomer's who ontop of only having had 100k in retirement saved on avg also were counting on there house value for retirement.

I think you need to think about the foundation of this country more and stop assuming everyone getting slammed in the market is rich.

And another thing. the whole idea that obama isnt going to raise taxes on anyone making less then 250k is a lie. everyone with money in the stock market like retirement age will get cap gains tax increase.

 

[uscitizen]

Yeah a big point assuming house value would grow.....Based retirement on it...
Why should home values always grow ? At least grow at a rate far outstripping inflation ?

I have wondered about this for years. It has been there though and a cornerstone of our economy that has fallen to rubble. Why was it this way ?

 

[TexasMeg]

1) I doubt most construction workers make more than you do. I know that here anyway, wages have really fallen for them.

2) I hope you are economically successful.

3) I in no way feel sorry for you, and doubt that I make more money than you do anyway. If I do, it's because of the money I earn with my side business, which counting that, ok maybe I do. Now. But that's a new development for me.

4) If I patronize you it's not because I think I am in economically superior to you, it's because I believe I am intellectually superior to you, but I believe that about most people, and this in no way makes you special.

5) I am only trying to get across that it's the top 2% for a reason. 2% of Americans are there, 98% are not. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this, but rarely is it because of laziness. Maybe a time of economic collapse, occuring after years of historically rising inequality, which I have always believed is unsustainable, would be a good time to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. Or maybe we should just continue on marching off the cliff, and crying over Chap's (and i don't mean to pick on him, i think he's a decent person) lost 6 figures, and the losses of people who have much more than him.

I don't know.

You are seeing only one side of this. Yes you have a point...as you often do, but what of all these men and women who are just retired, or close to it, that have now lost everything? What do they do now? Some have lost their money because banks have failed, and some have lost their money because their IRA's and 401k's went to shit in the last year. Are they in the top 2%??? I am sitting here thinking of my dad who is a firefighter...HARDLY top 2%. He raised me as a single parent and worked his ass off to save money so he could have a decent retirement. He was pretty comfortable and about to retire over a year ago due to his saving and smart investing. Sad to say it's not happening now. There are MILLIONS like him that have lost so much. You seem to be venting as if everyone who has lost so much in this market is in the same comfortable position and it's just not true.

 

[Cancel7]

what good would soul searching do for us besides drain a bunch of peoples retirement accounts?

I think your view of people like me is warped to be honest with you. 1) im not top 2%. I happen to have saved allot at a young age out of shire sacrifice but most definitely i am no big boy. 2) this assault on wallstreet and home value would kill baby boomer's who ontop of only having had 100k in retirement saved on avg also were counting on there house value for retirement.

I think you need to think about the foundation of this country more and stop assuming everyone getting slammed in the market is rich.

And another thing. the whole idea that obama isnt going to raise taxes on anyone making less then 250k is a lie. everyone with money in the stock market like retirement age will get cap gains tax increase.

Chap, if you're not in the top 2%, you're in the top 5%. You didn't qualify for a tax rebate, and I thought you said you would be effected by Obama's tax increase, and only the top 5% are. This is also not about my view of "people like you". You have been posting about the majority who do not, or at least, until very recently, did not, support the bailout. The fact that you really don't know your socio-economic status in our society, and seem to believe you're average, is a real testament to how little understanding you have of how most people in this country live.

As for my thinknig about the foundation of this country, I do. You want the foundation of this country to be on Wall street. And you mirror our society. Our society values people who create nothing, like hedge fund managers, the most. I believe that is a sickened foundation which was bound to crumble. The foundation of our country, after the new deal, and pre-1980's, used to be, working people. We had a pretty strong foundation back in those days, it wasn't built on air, it wasn't a house of cards, and it was real hard to destroy it.

As for capital gains taxes being raised, you have bought into the idea that nearly everyone owns stocks. Meanwhile, average people, like me, own them through our 401k's. I dont' give a shit about the capital gains tax Chap. And I'm in a better position than a lot of other people who will never have 401k's even. Do you think they give a shit about capital gains taxes?

You believe that as things stand today, is the alter at which I must worship. But I reject what the foundations of our country have been turned into, they have increased inequality in this country to pre-depression era levels. They have been bad for the majority of people. The middle class thought this foundation was good for them, and they went along. But in fact, it was the housing bubble which was good for them, short term. In the long term, it was built on air and good for no one.

I believe, there's a better way. A few may get hurt, but in the long run, the many would benefit.

 

[Cancel7]

You are seeing only one side of this. Yes you have a point...as you often do, but what of all these men and women who are just retired, or close to it, that have now lost everything? What do they do now? Some have lost their money because banks have failed, and some have lost their money because their IRA's and 401k's went to shit in the last year. Are they in the top 2%??? I am sitting here thinking of my dad who is a firefighter...HARDLY top 2%. He raised me as a single parent and worked his ass off to save money so he could have a decent retirement. He was pretty comfortable and about to retire over a year ago due to his saving and smart investing. Sad to say it's not happening now. There are MILLIONS like him that have lost so much. You seem to be venting as if everyone who has lost so much in this market is in the same comfortable position and it's just not true.

No meg. I have a 401k. One of the reasons I am so against SS privatization is because of exactly what you describe happening to your father. People with 401ks close to retirement are getting slammed in this. That's why the polling is turning around on the bailout.

But still, I do not believe that it is society's responsibility to keep the stock market inflated. Social responsibility for the elderly is addressed through Social security and medicare. This is what keeps our elderly from starvation, and from lack of any medical care. This is what it was designed for, and it's what we all pay taxes to keep.

Now you want more taxes from everyone, in order to keep the stock market inflated so that people do not lose personal investments. The stock market is a gamble, and it's not one that society needs to be covering with tax dollars. At some point, thems the breaks. That's why I insist on SS and medicare. I cannot however, say that society has a responsibility to go beyond those basic neccessaties, and provide a cushy retirement.

My dad died before he could ever collect SS, and he paid the top amount into it his whole life. Who do I see about that? Who does he see about that? We cannot provide absolute fairness to everyone. All society can provide is a safety net. And as equal a playing field as is possible.