Suspended for not standing for pledge!

Jarod said:
Here is a second place where I said "I feel"... I hardly think this expresses outage!
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Your vehemence seems to project an appearance of "outrage" to me. I did say that earlier it "seemed" that way, etc.

This is distracting from the conversation now and is basically worthless as it cannot add to the conversation. It's basically you saying "I'm not outraged" and me saying "it sure seemed that way". Not important enough to go on for so long about.

Again, if you can picture a time the teacher may ask a student to stand because it would be polite to do so then you can picture this in that same manner. I have faith that you can, and believe that saying you "can't" is only because you know it would be the end to the argument.
 
Damocles said:
Nobody requested he SAY the pledge, they requested he stand.
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Damo

any required recognition of the pledge is contrary to the first amendment

i for one, would prefer that it be banned from schools

i researched the reason why it was written and introduced and it is straight out of a fascists play book


regimentation is for ants
 
DonQuixote said:
Damo

any required recognition of the pledge is contrary to the first amendment

i for one, would prefer that it be banned from schools

i researched the reason why it was written and introduced and it is straight out of a fascists play book


regimentation is for ants
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LOL. Many things have been said between then and here.

However, recognizing and respecting others in the class and being polite does not require a recognition of what they are saying any more than being respectful during a prayer makes you a believer.
 
Damocles said:
LOL. Many things have been said between then and here.

However, recognizing and respecting others in the class and being polite does not require a recognition of what they are saying any more than being respectful during a prayer makes you a believer.
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How does remaining quietly seated violate any of these?
 
DonQuixote said:
i wondered that too
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Because the standard is to rise.

Just as if you were a Senator, standing respectfully during the pledge, even if you weren't to say it, would be expected.

The respect isn't for the cloth, it is for the others.

Again. I think it would be different for different areas. Some may be "offended" if you do not rise in some areas, other areas would not be so long as you didn't get in the way.

I can see a teacher asking for simple manners from a student.
 
damo

i do not respect ants, i step on them

ANY required recognition of a disputed required or 'voluntary' action a person disagrees with is a rape of that person

as you may have guessed, i feel rather strongly about the pledge

a politician does what he must even if it violates his spirit :(

do we want to teach our children to go against what they believe is right

besides, sitting is a better way of demonstrating their belief
 
DonQuixote said:
damo

i do not respect ants, i step on them

ANY required recognition of a disputed required or 'voluntary' action a person disagrees with is a rape of that person

as you may have guessed, i feel rather strongly about the pledge

a politician does what he must even if it violates his spirit :(

do we want to teach our children to go against what they believe is right

besides, sitting is a better way of demonstrating their belief
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Again, only if you look at it through a straw can you only picture it in this manner. People allow their emotion to get in the way. If we focus only on that which we find repellent, we tend to miss other things that are happening. The subtlety and the reasons that something could be requested that are not what we are all bent over. We forget that there are 64 crayons in the box and only see black and white.

I used to be this same way about "In God We Trust".
 
Desh said:
teaching kids to blindly follow is bad for freedom.

BTW the church analogy is not good because school is mandated and church is not.
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Yeah lots of freedom in school. First problem is you have to go. Don't get to pick your assignments and textbooks, Have mandatory classes, etc...
 
Damocles said:
Because the standard is to rise.

Just as if you were a Senator, standing respectfully during the pledge, even if you weren't to say it, would be expected.

The respect isn't for the cloth, it is for the others.

Again. I think it would be different for different areas. Some may be "offended" if you do not rise in some areas, other areas would not be so long as you didn't get in the way.

I can see a teacher asking for simple manners from a student.
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The standard is to rise out of respect for the flag. Is the standard of the military to salute just that a standard with no context. You are trying to completely remove the context from the standing. We do not stand for the Pledge or for the national anthem at a game because other people are standing. We stand to show respect for the flag or we, like me don't stand.
 
the standard is to rise out of respect or at least obediance to the teacher.

The flag is just a damned piece of cloth ;)
 
Socrtease said:
The standard is to rise out of respect for the flag. Is the standard of the military to salute just that a standard with no context. You are trying to completely remove the context from the standing. We do not stand for the Pledge or for the national anthem at a game because other people are standing. We stand to show respect for the flag or we, like me don't stand.
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The standard in politeness is to do what the others do, not to show respect for the piece of cloth, but for the others.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse because you desperately want to believe that there can be only one reason. That it really is only black and white. All because admitting that there may be other reasons takes away 100% of your argument. I find this weak, and baseless. Any person of reason can see more than one reason to request this.
 
Yes I recall at all the sports venues I have been to when they say "please rise out of respect for all the other people standing around you while Clay Akin sings our national anthem." I recall that in the army they told me I was saluting because everyone else was and it had NOTHING to do with respect for the flag. Fuck sake I remember driving off post at 5pm when they played the recording of the bugle and we all got out of our car, faced the music and saluted out of respect for all the other people that get out of their cars. The whole reason for it is respect for the cloth.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes I recall at all the sports venues I have been to when they say "please rise out of respect for all the other people standing around you while Clay Akin sings our national anthem." I recall that in the army they told me I was saluting because everyone else was and it had NOTHING to do with respect for the flag. Fuck sake I remember driving off post at 5pm when they played the recording of the bugle and we all got out of our car, faced the music and saluted out of respect for all the other people that get out of their cars. The whole reason for it is respect for the cloth.
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LOL in the military it is to escape punishment. You like KP and such ?
You do exactly what they say to hopefully escape punishment.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes I recall at all the sports venues I have been to when they say "please rise out of respect for all the other people standing around you while Clay Akin sings our national anthem." I recall that in the army they told me I was saluting because everyone else was and it had NOTHING to do with respect for the flag. Fuck sake I remember driving off post at 5pm when they played the recording of the bugle and we all got out of our car, faced the music and saluted out of respect for all the other people that get out of their cars. The whole reason for it is respect for the cloth.
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Military, not voluntary. They don't say "out of respect" for anything. They just say "Please rise while Clay sings the national anthem."

Sometimes they even say, "join in if you'd like".

Now you are getting into the ridiculous. Each time somebody says "please rise" they must give you every single reason possible, nothing can be considered logical like simple politeness?

I think you are being totally disingenuous.

At least I recognize that one of the reasons that they could ask is because they think you should "respect the flag". If that is the only reason I would even agree with you. However, I recognize that there are more than one reason that somebody might ask you to "please rise", and I think most of those other reasons don't even violate your First Amendment rights.
 
http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

Flag Etiquette​
STANDARDS of RESPECT​
The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used.


The Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem​
The pledge of allegiance should be rendered by standing at attention, facing the flag, and saluting.
When the national anthem is played or sung, citizens should stand at attention and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the music.


The Salute​
To salute, all persons come to attention. Those in uniform give the appropriate formal salute. Citizens not in uniform salute by placing their right hand over the heart and men with head cover should remove it and hold it to left shoulder, hand over the heart. Members of organizations in formation salute upon command of the person in charge

I looked it up and down and NO WHERE did it say we rise to give respect to the other people rising and giving respect to the flag
 
Socrtease said:
http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

Flag Etiquette​
STANDARDS of RESPECT​
The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used.


The Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem​
The pledge of allegiance should be rendered by standing at attention, facing the flag, and saluting.
When the national anthem is played or sung, citizens should stand at attention and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the music.


The Salute​
To salute, all persons come to attention. Those in uniform give the appropriate formal salute. Citizens not in uniform salute by placing their right hand over the heart and men with head cover should remove it and hold it to left shoulder, hand over the heart. Members of organizations in formation salute upon command of the person in charge

I looked it up and down and NO WHERE did it say we rise to give respect to the other people rising and giving respect to the flag
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Because this isn't a manners site, now, is it?

This has to be the absolute most disingenuous thing I have ever seen from you.

Being polite isn't what is found in the flag code.

You are pretending to be clueless because you don't want to admit that there might be another reason other than this code to ask somebody to stand. But there is.

Such pretense is getting normal for this thread.

My argument is that there are reasons other than "saluting the flag" to ask a kid to stand and that one of those is to be polite to the kids who are standing to salute the flag.

I have even stated that in some places there would be different standards on this. Posting from a site on how to salute the flag properly isn't evidence that being polite doesn't exist. In fact we all know it exists without that and I have given myriad examples.
 
And from the community education director in the school district:



"These three [students] didn't, and they got caught," said Mel Olson, the district's community education director. He said he backs the punishment, "being a veteran and a United States of America citizen, absolutely." Olson served in the Marines in Japan during the Vietnam War.

Wow you were right Damo it is all about manners which is why the community education director mention his veteran status and being an "american citizen" cause real american citizens stand out of respect for other people standing for the flag.
 
Disappearing toothpicks are wizardry and not standing for the pledge is a punishible offense? But it is the NEA that is fucking up education.
 
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