Suspended for not standing for pledge!

Superfreak said:
Give me a break... you have shown nothing BUT anger and faux outrage ever since you saw that GW got a hug from McCain and you didn't.
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I have been outraged by GWB, but again I ask, and you cant do it... Show me where I have been outraged in this thread or on this issue?
 
Socrtease said:
So why then is it Ok for JW's to NOT stand for the Pledge because of religious reasons but it is NOT ok for other kids to NOT stand for some non-religious philosophical opposistion to standing for a cloth on a stick? Why is it that when it is for MAGIC reasons it's ok not to stand but when it is just for non-religious non magic reasons it is impolite?
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LOL, you got me soc they are all over the place on this one.
 
uscitizen said:
Left and right only exist on such things as abortion and guns, etc in our govt. both sides are pro big business existing on the backs of the little guy.
No left and right does exist in individuals and such , but not so much in our govt any more.
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I strongly disagree ..

war
taxes
education
government assistance to individuals
healthcare
immigration
foreign policy

The DLC brought democrats to the center to sit on the fence while the right dominated politics .. but the battle for the course and direction of the Democratic Party that is happening today is a testament to those glaring differences.
 
Damocles said:
Resent away, you respect the position even if you don't respect the man who holds it. It doesn't mean that they expect you to accept the national Motto.
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That's a wierd though accepted way of thinking that I have never understood.

Respect a position .. but not the person in it?

wierd
 
blackascoal said:
That's a wierd though accepted way of thinking that I have never understood.

Respect a position .. but not the person in it?

wierd
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I can understand it in the following way...

I respect the men and women who enter the military and that they are blindly following the will of the government for the protection of our nation.

I do not respect the decision to send them to Iraq... and although I do not belive what they were sent to do helps us one ounce... I respect them and consider them heros for doing it.
 
I have taken an oath to Protect and Defend the United States Constitution as a soldier and as a lawyer, I am proud to take that oath and think if MORE American's did they might think about what that meant and what the document meant. But oath is to defending a living document one that if it were changed would drastically change what it meant to live in the US and what it means to be a US citizen, They could completely change the shape colors and pattern of the flag and it would have zero affect on the REASONS we exist and those things we hold sacrosanct as a country like free speech and freedom from random searches and seizures. But in the last 20 years and especially inthe last 8 we have allowed the right wing in this country to define what is and is not patriotic. It is patriotic to wear a flag pin on your lapel but unpatriotic to question the governments involvement in the war. We wring our hands over whether someone had their hand over their heart during the right place in the Pledge and Anthem and at the same time tell people that freedoms have Changed because "9-11 changed everything".

Samuel Johnson is supposed to have said Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Many Lefties have become fond of saying it as a way to decry everything a rightwing administration does and many Righties say that lefties use the saying only because they hate america. However Johnson's alleged statement has been misused, it is true. The use of patriotism to silence people who dissent or who you disagree with is repulsive. Claiming that someone is not patriotic because they don't wear a flag on their lapel anymore appeals only to the lowest political common denominator.

This most recent suspension was not done, no matter what ANYONE says, because it was disrespectful to the other kids who are doing it ONLY because they were supposed to. It was done because some teacher has his or her "patriotic" sensiblities offended. Forcing anyone to stand out of respect for the flag does not breed respect. It is not more a passionate feeling than when Mao made everyone go outside and read from the little red book to show what great communists they were. But, it is everybit the same use of force to press conformity. Yes I get offended when kids are FORCED to believe anything. FORCING beliefs on another is a form of slavery. It is the antithesis of what our forefathers had in mind for a new country. Jefferson would be offended at the attempt to force people to pledge to the flag as i am sure many other founders would be. Now I don't necessarily think caring about what the founders thought or would think matters much, but some of you righties do. Sometimes I wish that right in this county really would ask WWJD but that the J would stand for Jefferson, or James Madison
 
Socrtease said:
I have taken an oath to Protect and Defend the United States Constitution as a soldier and as a lawyer, I am proud to take that oath and think if MORE American's did they might think about what that meant and what the document meant. But oath is to defending a living document one that if it were changed would drastically change what it meant to live in the US and what it means to be a US citizen, They could completely change the shape colors and pattern of the flag and it would have zero affect on the REASONS we exist and those things we hold sacrosanct as a country like free speech and freedom from random searches and seizures. But in the last 20 years and especially inthe last 8 we have allowed the right wing in this country to define what is and is not patriotic. It is patriotic to wear a flag pin on your lapel but unpatriotic to question the governments involvement in the war. We wring our hands over whether someone had their hand over their heart during the right place in the Pledge and Anthem and at the same time tell people that freedoms have Changed because "9-11 changed everything".

Samuel Johnson is supposed to have said Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Many Lefties have become fond of saying it as a way to decry everything a rightwing administration does and many Righties say that lefties use the saying only because they hate america. However Johnson's alleged statement has been misused, it is true. The use of patriotism to silence people who dissent or who you disagree with is repulsive. Claiming that someone is not patriotic because they don't wear a flag on their lapel anymore appeals only to the lowest political common denominator.

This most recent suspension was not done, no matter what ANYONE says, because it was disrespectful to the other kids who are doing it ONLY because they were supposed to. It was done because some teacher has his or her "patriotic" sensiblities offended. Forcing anyone to stand out of respect for the flag does not breed respect. It is not more a passionate feeling than when Mao made everyone go outside and read from the little red book to show what great communists they were. But, it is everybit the same use of force to press conformity. Yes I get offended when kids are FORCED to believe anything. FORCING beliefs on another is a form of slavery. It is the antithesis of what our forefathers had in mind for a new country. Jefferson would be offended at the attempt to force people to pledge to the flag as i am sure many other founders would be. Now I don't necessarily think caring about what the founders thought or would think matters much, but some of you righties do. Sometimes I wish that right in this county really would ask WWJD but that the J would stand for Jefferson, or James Madison
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Yup, Yup, what he said.
 
Jarod said:
Okay, I see the humor.

NOW, DAMO, show me the outrage?

Cant do it can you?
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Anyway...

All the emotive words you use throughout. "I feel" and "I resent", for instance, tends to denote an amount of emotionalism that others are not attaching to the argument. It tends to put forward the idea of "offense" and/or "outrage".

I am neither offended by the action, or outraged. I am, as you say about yourself, simply interested in the argument. Can you see any way that asking a child to stand in class would not be met with such outcry? And if you can, then you can see how this could also be looked at the same as that one.
 
Damocles said:
Anyway...

All the emotive words you use throughout. "I feel" and "I resent", for instance, tends to denote an amount of emotionalism that others are not attaching to the argument. It tends to put forward the idea of "offense" and/or "outrage".

I am neither offended by the action, or outraged. I am, as you say about yourself, simply interested in the argument. Can you see any way that asking a child to stand in class would not be met with such outcry? And if you can, then you can see how this could also be looked at the same as that one.
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This has barely been reported, noone seems to be taking up the cause. Where is the missing outrage you keep mentioning?
 
teaching kids to blindly follow is bad for freedom.

BTW the church analogy is not good because school is mandated and church is not.
 
Jarod said:
I do not feel Americans should ever be required by the government to be polite for the soul purpose of being polite.
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Once so far I used "I do not feel" but this hardly expresses ourtage... ???!??
 
I dont think I used the word "resent". But one can resent something without being "outraged"!
 
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