The end of particle physics?

BidenPresident said:
Efficient cause just means how or the agency by which something changes. Final cause is the telos, the purpose or reason.
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Right, like I said science doesn't really deal with agency or purpose/teleology, and tends to deal with the material cause and formal cause of matter, energy, mechanics and motion.
 
Cypress said:
BidenPresident said:
Efficient cause just means how or the agency by which something changes. Final cause is the telos, the purpose or reason.
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Right, like I said science doesn't really deal with agency or purpose/teleology, and tends to deal with the material cause and formal cause of matter, energy, mechanics and motion.
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Agreed, but that's not what she wants to discuss. BP is like a teenage girl who wants to be the world's focus of attention just like she was Daddy's princess as a child.

My guess is that she's under 35 (and probably closer to 25), single and frustrated in love, some college and working in a job she hates. Intelligent, but undisciplined which is why she's a raging set of hormones instead of an intellectual. This forum is one place where she vents.

FWIW, I enjoyed the Efficient Cause and Telos references even though it's a derail on this thread. Perhaps you can direct her to one of your more philosophical threads?

When talking about "before" the creation of Space-Time, we run into problems of language and concept.

https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/4270_Aristotelian_Causes.html
Agency or Efficiency: an efficient cause consists of things apart from the thing being changed, which interact so as to be an agency of the change. For example, the efficient cause of a table is a carpenter acting on wood. In the natural world, the efficient cause of a child is a father.
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https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/telos/v-1
Telos is the ancient Greek term for an end, fulfilment, completion, goal or aim; it is the source of the modern word ‘teleology’. In Greek philosophy the term plays two important and interrelated roles, in ethics and in natural science; both are connected to the most common definitional account of the telos, according to which a telos is that for the sake of which something is done or occurs.
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You're much more scientifically educated and inclined than myself. My education and life experience has involved more philosophical views and using tech.
 
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Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed, but that's not what she wants to discuss. BP is like a teenage girl who wants to be the world's focus of attention just like she was Daddy's princess as a child.

My guess is that she's under 35 (and probably closer to 25), single and frustrated in love, some college and working in a job she hates. Intelligent, but undisciplined which is why she's a raging set of hormones instead of an intellectual. This forum is one place where she vents.

FWIW, I enjoyed the Efficient Cause and Telos references even though it's a derail on this thread. Perhaps you can direct her to one of your more philosophical threads?

When talking about "before" the creation of Space-Time, we run into problems of language and concept.

https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/4270_Aristotelian_Causes.html


https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/telos/v-1


You're much more scientifically educated and inclined than myself. My education and life experience has involved more philosophical views and using tech.
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An excellent point. The limitations of language is certainly a limitation on how we talk about the origin of spacetime, and what came before the Big Bang. In a sense, we are prisoners of language. The only way to transcend language is through maths.

I think Steven Hawking even said it is illogical to even speculate on what came before the Big Bang, because it might be meaningless to think about time before then, as time might depend on the entropy of matter and energy.
 
Cypress said:
An excellent point. The limitations of language is certainly a limitation on how we talk about the origin of spacetime, and what came before the Big Bang. In a sense, we are prisoners of language. The only way to transcend language is through maths.

I think Steven Hawking even said it is illogical to even speculate on what came before the Big Bang, because it might be meaningless to think about time before then, as time might depend on the entropy of matter and energy.
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Agreed. You've touched on the most probable solution: Math. We lack the words but mathematics goes beyond words.
 
Cypress said:
An excellent point. The limitations of language is certainly a limitation on how we talk about the origin of spacetime, and what came before the Big Bang. In a sense, we are prisoners of language. The only way to transcend language is through maths.

I think Steven Hawking even said it is illogical to even speculate on what came before the Big Bang, because it might be meaningless to think about time before then, as time might depend on the entropy of matter and energy.
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Guys like you always get hung up because a Spiritual event not a physics event was the "Genesis" of the Big Bang
 
On a tangent to particle physics -->

While much of the physics community thinks dark matter is literally a particle which we should be able to detect with the right technology and experiment, there is another school of thought.

A number of physicists speculate that dark matter might be the gravitational effects of matter in another universe leaking through into our own, through the branes separating the multiverse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sm...-a-fifth-force-of-nature-20220705-p5az5c.html
 
Mr.Mason said:
Guys like you always get hung up because a Spiritual event not a physics event was the "Genesis" of the Big Bang
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No, I might be one of the few genuine agnostics on this board because I openly admit a lack of knowledge and do not categorically rule out that there could be a purposeful, organizing principle underlying the universe.
 
Cypress said:
On a tangent to particle physics -->

While much of the physics community thinks dark matter is literally a particle which we should be able to detect with the right technology and experiment, there is another school of thought.

A number of physicists speculate that dark matter might be the gravitational effects of matter in another universe leaking through into our own, through the branes separating the multiverse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sm...-a-fifth-force-of-nature-20220705-p5az5c.html
Click to expand...

Sweet if true since that indicates a pathway to another reality.
 
Cypress said:
No, I might be one of the few genuine agnostics on this board because I openly admit a lack of knowledge and do not categorically rule out that there could be a purposeful, organizing principle underlying the universe.
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Search for the connection between the Spirit world and physical universe
 
BidenPresident said:
What is the Spirit world. Oh, I know, the Christian religion. How mysterious!
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Despite some wishful thinking on the part of the religious, how would a "spirit world" vary from the concept of another Universe which is leaking Dark Matter into ours as Cypress mentioned?

The fact is, no one knows if other such planes of existence exist. It's all scientific theory. Only the religious/irreligious that advocate as fact things that have not been proven.

https://www.livescience.com/multiverse
Multiverse theory suggests that our universe, with all its hundreds of billions of galaxies and almost countless stars, spanning tens of billions of light-years, may not be the only one. Instead, there may be an entirely different universe, distantly separated from ours — and another, and another. Indeed, there may be an infinity of universes, all with their own laws of physics, their own collections of stars and galaxies (if stars and galaxies can exist in those universes), and maybe even their own intelligent civilizations.

It could be that our universe is just one member of a much grander, much larger multitude of universes: a multiverse.



Cypress said:
On a tangent to particle physics -->

While much of the physics community thinks dark matter is literally a particle which we should be able to detect with the right technology and experiment, there is another school of thought.

A number of physicists speculate that dark matter might be the gravitational effects of matter in another universe leaking through into our own, through the branes separating the multiverse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sm...-a-fifth-force-of-nature-20220705-p5az5c.html
Click to expand...
 
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