the federalist papers, the documents which kill all the right wing memes

evince said:
want to discuss the federalist papers?



we can start right with number one and work our way through.


The right will be seen for what they are.


You people on the right take the side of the antifederalists and NOT the good ones.
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So this thread looked interesting when it popped up today; it's been many years since I've read the Federalist Papers, would be good to get a refresher, do some re-reading.

I admit I'm coming in late to the thread; but reading the first couple pages and the last - it doesn't look like the Federalist Papers ever got discussed. Seemed to be turning into a pro-gun, anti-abortion thread with lots of talk of what various founders thought even if they didn't write any of the Federalist Papers.

Bummer.
 
evince said:
http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/...rning-the-general-power-of-taxation-continued


then lets discuss this one
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Sure.

"It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction." Federalist 41
 
the history of this country shows just how WRONG the current republican party is.


they don't even know it.


they have bought the right wing crap for so long they don't know real truth
 
evince said:
then why does the right call taxes illegal and want to end the IRS?
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Well, to be fair, the link you included in the next post does propose a national sales tax or a flat tax to replace the federal income tax; so they aren't totally opposed to taxes. However, why they think THAT won't ALSO require a bureaucracy to collect it, that I'm not sure about.

I personally don't think a sales tax should replace an income tax; it's a regressive style of tax. In addition - I'm copying this from the federalist link you posted - "Let it be recollected that the proportion of these taxes is not to be left to the discretion of the national legislature, but is to be determined by the numbers of each State, as described in the second section of the first article." . So I don't know that a sales tax would really come in proportion to the numbers of each state. In places where prices are higher, people would be paying more in sales tax.

Flat tax also is regressive. We've always worked on the principal that the poorest shouldn't have to give as big a percent of their income as the richest (unlike churches that tithe 10% across the board) and there are good reasons for that.

Ending the "IRS" wouldn't end a govt bureaucracy to collect taxes; our govt needs to be paid for, and someone needs to collect the taxes. Just like creating the Homeland Security dept didn't reduce the number of people working on those kinds of issues -just consolidated them.
 
evince said:
they run away no matter which one I try to discuss
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Bummer. But given the comments I saw at the beginning of this thread, better that they run away than they put their off-topic comments in...

I read this in an American History class; our assignment was then to write a paper against the arguments in the Federalist Papers. Still remember one poor guy came in, turned in his paper, and withdrew that day - because he heard the assignment wrong and wrote the paper FOR the Federalist Papers.

It was a good exercise to go through. Wish I remembered more. Been on my "need to read again" list for awhile now...
 
evince said:
then why does the right call taxes illegal and want to end the IRS?
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Because GovCo taxes too much, is too big and uses the IRS to micro-manage social policy.

So why does the Left tink there is a "general welfare clause" that allows GovCo to do whatever it wants, enumeration of powers be damned?
 
tekkychick said:
Well, to be fair, the link you included in the next post does propose a national sales tax or a flat tax to replace the federal income tax; so they aren't totally opposed to taxes. However, why they think THAT won't ALSO require a bureaucracy to collect it, that I'm not sure about.

I personally don't think a sales tax should replace an income tax; it's a regressive style of tax. In addition - I'm copying this from the federalist link you posted - "Let it be recollected that the proportion of these taxes is not to be left to the discretion of the national legislature, but is to be determined by the numbers of each State, as described in the second section of the first article." . So I don't know that a sales tax would really come in proportion to the numbers of each state. In places where prices are higher, people would be paying more in sales tax.

Flat tax also is regressive. We've always worked on the principal that the poorest shouldn't have to give as big a percent of their income as the richest (unlike churches that tithe 10% across the board) and there are good reasons for that.

Ending the "IRS" wouldn't end a govt bureaucracy to collect taxes; our govt needs to be paid for, and someone needs to collect the taxes. Just like creating the Homeland Security dept didn't reduce the number of people working on those kinds of issues -just consolidated them.
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Either tax code would substantially reduce the amount of paperwork that the IRS would have to process, which would cut back considerably on personnel. Sales tax forms would be handled and submitted by each merchant and business. Flat Taxes would require a single page form. They would also produce more revenue, as people would be taxed with a single rate for their entire income, rather than for graduated rates on each segment of their income.
 
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