The Gospel of Thomas

[Dutch Uncle]

I don’t believe that is what they are saying, but they’ve have to clarify for you.

Thanks. I'm trying to understand what they are saying too. When it comes to Free Will, it's like being "a little bit pregnant"; it either is or isn't. He's saying isn't and that has consequences just like having Free Will has consequences.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you believe God is omniscient?

you are heading down a failed path......the fact that God is omniscient has no impact on our free will, as he does not communicate what he knows to us......WE are not omniscient, therefore our actions are not controlled by the fact he knows what we will freely choose......

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Do you believe God is omniscient?

Yes. It's one thing to believe God is omniscient, but it's another to believe God interferes in the short span of time that covers one's physical life. Many Protestants cherry-pick Matthew 10:29-31 to mean God will interfere but they overlook Matthew 10:28.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

?????......how on earth can you rationally make such a claim.......(or wait, did something force you to reach that conclusion against your will).......

I wish you had actually read the entire post. But I understand. It was long and had more than a couple multisyllabic words in it.

If you would actually like to discuss what I wrote please re-read it and THEN ask questions.

Thanks!

 

[ZenMode]

Yes, the theory that we're all soulless ambulatory meat computers solely reacting to biochemical and genetic programming. The Dumb Universe Theory; the Universe suddenly pops into existence (don't ask why) and spews out chemicals which can bond then it dies 100 trillion years later. What happens in between doesn't matter to you.

I disagree and favor not only a synergistic effect when life begins but that the Universe itself is intelligent on some level.

While I agree a bit about events in a timeline, consider the multiverse theory where everything that could happen, does happen.

Multiverse theory says the answer to the question "Ask the girl on a date or not"? is "both". Which multiverse a person ends up depends upon their choices.

One's choice is "free will". You are saying we don't have choices and I disagree.

i'm not saying we don't come across situations where choices are made. We do. The "Ask a girl on a date" happens thousands of times a day. I have the thought "I am thirsty" and I immediately make a choice to either a) get a drink or b) don't get a drink. The decision on which action is taken is based on our conscious thought/counter thoughts: "I'm thirsty. Ugh. I left my drink in kitchen. Should I get up and go get it or wait until the next commercial. I'm not that thirsty. I'll just wait. I don't want to miss the game".

Every thought in that chain, that led to a decision, enter our consciousness completely out of our control. We have no idea what we're going to think next and we have no ability to stop our next thought, yet it's our thoughts that determine basically every deliberate action we take. Where is free will in that?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

I wish you had actually read the entire post. But I understand. It was long and had more than a couple multisyllabic words in it.

If you would actually like to discuss what I wrote please re-read it and THEN ask questions.

Thanks!

sad that you don't know enough to understand even what YOU posted.....

 

[Dutch Uncle]

i'm not saying we don't come across situations where choices are made. We do. The "Ask a girl on a date" happens thousands of times a day. I have the thought "I am thirsty" and I immediately make a choice to either a) get a drink or b) don't get a drink. The decision on which action is taken is based on our conscious thought/counter thoughts: "I'm thirsty. Ugh. I left my drink in kitchen. Should I get up and go get it or wait until the next commercial. I'm not that thirsty. I'll just wait. I don't want to miss the game".

Every thought in that chain, that led to a decision, enter our consciousness completely out of our control. We have no idea what we're going to think next and we have no ability to stop our next thought, yet it's our thoughts that determine basically every deliberate action we take. Where is free will in that?

You're waffling. The reason we don't know what we'll do next is because we can't see into the future. However, sane people can make a prediction on what they'll do next such as plan a grocery run, pick up the kids at 5PM, schedule a doctor's appointment for next week, etc. Those are all choices and choice is an example of Free Will.

Zen involves choice. Choice = Free Will.

If you want to believe you are a meat robot responding to programming by an unseen hand, go for it, but then the Zen in your username becomes contrary to your beliefs.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

sad that you don't know enough to understand even what YOU posted.....

What was your level of education? I assume you graduated high school. Curious how far you were able to make it beyond.

 

[Phantasmal]

Thanks. I'm trying to understand what they are saying too. When it comes to Free Will, it's like being "a little bit pregnant"; it either is or isn't. He's saying isn't and that has consequences just like having Free Will has consequences.

I don’t believe in the concept of free will from a dogmatic point of view, it contradicts an omniscient god in my opinion.

 

[Phantasmal]

Yes. It's one thing to believe God is omniscient, but it's another to believe God interferes in the short span of time that covers one's physical life. Many Protestants cherry-pick Matthew 10:29-31 to mean God will interfere but they overlook Matthew 10:28.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

I don’t believe free will is possible if a god is omniscient, my opinion.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don’t believe in the concept of free will from a dogmatic point of view, it contradicts an omniscient god in my opinion.

Why would it contradict an omniscient god? Consider being a mother/grandmother. Your kids squabble; do you always interfere, or do you think that it's important that they work it out for themselves? Sure there are limits, but we are limited to the physical universe, not an eternal one.

As Matthew 10:28 points out, one's eternal soul is what's most important.

Atheists love to point out that if God existed, then why did God allow millions to die in WWII? Over 250,000 to die in the 2004 Tsunami? Ergo, they draw the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

IMO, they are thinking only of the physical realm, not the eternal one. Both Matthew 16:26 and Mark 8:36 point this out by stating, "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"

IMO, God doesn't interfere in the physical world, but most certainly is there for the eternal one.

 

[Phantasmal]

Why would it contradict an omniscient god? Consider being a mother/grandmother. Your kids squabble; do you always interfere, or do you think that it's important that they work it out for themselves? Sure there are limits, but we are limited to the physical universe, not an eternal one.

As Matthew 10:28 points out, one's eternal soul is what's most important.

Atheists love to point out that if God existed, then why did God allow millions to die in WWII? Over 250,000 to die in the 2004 Tsunami? Ergo, they draw the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

IMO, they are thinking only of the physical realm, not the eternal one. Both Matthew 16:26 and Mark 8:36 point this out by stating, "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"

IMO, God doesn't interfere in the physical world, but most certainly is there for the eternal one.

My opinion, I’ve had this discussion with ministers, you’re not going to change my mind.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Atheists love to point out that if God existed, then why did God allow millions to die in WWII? Over 250,000 to die in the 2004 Tsunami? Ergo, they draw the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

You GROSSLY oversimplify the atheist position. I'm sure some fall for this "Problem of Evil" as a reason, but not all do. Some recall Liebniz's exhortation that this is the best of all possible worlds and that the suffering that happens is the only way things can exist with a "minimized" amount of suffering (if I am recalling correctly).

The Problem of Evil is not, for me, a particularly big issue. I'm willing to accept that this is part of God's plans etc. etc. It is more interesting, though, that an omnipotent being would somehow be forced to create a lesser being and then wind up with ANY scenario in which He is required to then PUNISH those lesser beings for failing to be less imperfect.

That's a more interesting and juicy discussion point.

IMO, they are thinking only of the physical realm, not the eternal one.

Another flaw in God's design is that no one, literally no one in the ENTIRE history of the ENTIRE SPECIES of humanity has EVER been able to verify the existence of the "eternal realm". In fact we have about a billion different versions of it. And each person is 100% absolutely sure ONLY THEY have the "truth".

Perhaps an omniscient God could have foreseen this eventuality? But he sits back to let countless millions if not billions of souls go to perdition for failing to believe the proper thing.

 

[ZenMode]

You're waffling. The reason we don't know what we'll do next is because we can't see into the future. However, sane people can make a prediction on what they'll do next such as plan a grocery run, pick up the kids at 5PM, schedule a doctor's appointment for next week, etc. Those are all choices and choice is an example of Free Will.

Zen involves choice. Choice = Free Will.

If you want to believe you are a meat robot responding to programming by an unseen hand, go for it, but then the Zen in your username becomes contrary to your beliefs.

Again, I'm not saying we don't make choices. I'm not saying that some actions aren't deliberate, like scheduling a doctor's appointment. I'm saying that the decision to make a doctor's appointment and the decision to go or to not go to the appointment aren't not decisions we control. The decision to make an appointment, like the decision to get up and get a drink, is made based on a serious of thoughts/counter-thoughts, none of which we control. There's no part of you that sits outside of your stream of conscious thought. There are only thoughts which come into consciousness, we don't know what they are going to be until we think them and we can't stop the thoughts from entering consciousness, yet it's those EXACT thoughts that determine everything we do. That's not free will.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

My opinion, I’ve had this discussion with ministers, you’re not going to change my mind.

We're only sharing opinions, not trying to change the minds of people dead set on not changing regardless of the logic or evidence.

 

[Jarod]

Again, I'm not saying we don't make choices. I'm not saying that some actions aren't deliberate, like scheduling a doctor's appointment. I'm saying that the decision to make a doctor's appointment and the decision to go or to not go to the appointment aren't not decisions we control. The decision to make an appointment, like the decision to get up and get a drink, is made based on a serious of thoughts/counter-thoughts, none of which we control. There's no part of you that sits outside of your stream of conscious thought. There are only thoughts which come into consciousness, we don't know what they are going to be until we think them and we can't stop the thoughts from entering consciousness, yet it's those EXACT thoughts that determine everything we do. That's not free will.

I think free will is the decision to do something about a particular thought versus another.

I have thousands of thoughts a day that I discount and move on from taking no action, and I have a few thoughts a day that I decide to take action on... is that not free will?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You GROSSLY oversimplify the atheist position....

Okay, atheists on JPP.

As for "evil", some believe it's a force and Satan is evil incarnate. IMO, evil is simply the absence of good just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light.

Flaw in what "God's design"? Are you speaking for a particular religion or are you oversimplifying the American Christian POV?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Again, I'm not saying we don't make choices. I'm not saying that some actions aren't deliberate, like scheduling a doctor's appointment. I'm saying that the decision to make a doctor's appointment and the decision to go or to not go to the appointment aren't not decisions we control. The decision to make an appointment, like the decision to get up and get a drink, is made based on a serious of thoughts/counter-thoughts, none of which we control. There's no part of you that sits outside of your stream of conscious thought. There are only thoughts which come into consciousness, we don't know what they are going to be until we think them and we can't stop the thoughts from entering consciousness, yet it's those EXACT thoughts that determine everything we do. That's not free will.

Dude, a person who doesn't accept that their "stream of consciousness" is them is exhibiting signs of schizophrenia. The whole "I think, therefore I am", not "the voices tell me to do things".

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/schizophrenia/symptoms-causes/syc-20354443

Schizophrenia involves a range of problems with thinking (cognition), behavior and emotions. Signs and symptoms may vary, but usually involve delusions, hallucinations or disorganized speech, and reflect an impaired ability to function. Symptoms may include:

• Delusions. These are false beliefs that are not based in reality. For example, you think that you're being harmed or harassed; certain gestures or comments are directed at you; you have exceptional ability or fame; another person is in love with you; or a major catastrophe is about to occur. Delusions occur in most people with schizophrenia.
• Hallucinations. These usually involve seeing or hearing things that don't exist. Yet for the person with schizophrenia, they have the full force and impact of a normal experience. Hallucinations can be in any of the senses, but hearing voices is the most common hallucination.
• Disorganized thinking (speech). Disorganized thinking is inferred from disorganized speech. Effective communication can be impaired, and answers to questions may be partially or completely unrelated. Rarely, speech may include putting together meaningless words that can't be understood, sometimes known as word salad.
• Extremely disorganized or abnormal motor behavior. This may show in a number of ways, from childlike silliness to unpredictable agitation. Behavior isn't focused on a goal, so it's hard to do tasks. Behavior can include resistance to instructions, inappropriate or bizarre posture, a complete lack of response, or useless and excessive movement.
• Negative symptoms. This refers to reduced or lack of ability to function normally. For example, the person may neglect personal hygiene or appear to lack emotion (doesn't make eye contact, doesn't change facial expressions or speaks in a monotone). Also, the person may lose interest in everyday activities, socially withdraw or lack the ability to experience pleasure.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Okay, atheists on JPP.

I'm an atheist on JPP which proves your contention incorrect. I hope I have clarified that for you.

As for "evil", some believe it's a force and Satan is evil incarnate. IMO, evil is simply the absence of good just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light.

That is just semantics. It doesn't really resolve the issue per se.

Flaw in what "God's design"?

Are you legitimately asking this question? Have you never heard the phrase or have any familiarity with the concept? Because it is EXTREMELY common.

Are you speaking for a particular religion or are you oversimplifying the American Christian POV?

It doesn't apply to any particular religion. Since almost all religions suggest that God is in control.

 

[ZenMode]

I think free will is the decision to do something about a particular thought versus another.

I have thousands of thoughts a day that I discount and move on from taking no action, and I have a few thoughts a day that I decide to take action on... is that not free will?

Yep, we all have thousands of thoughts a day. In fact, if you ever really pay attention, you'll notice that we are constantly talking to ourselves in the form of a conscious stream of thought that we can't stop. "Where did I put my keys? I just had them this morning and I always put them in the drawer with my wallet..... Oh, there they are! Why are they on the table? I don't remember putting them there."

Who are we talking to? Are we telling ourselves what we already know?

"I have a few thoughts a day that I decide to take action on... is that not free will?"

A thought to do something, and then a counter thought that results in you not taking action, is still all based on thoughts that you didn't consciously create. We aren't able to sit outside of our stream of thought. Thoughts/counter thoughts just arise in consciousness and we take, or don't take, action based on those thoughts. There is no separate "self" that is able to think our thoughts before we think them.