The Gospel of Thomas

[ThatOwlWoman]

There’s a common refrain among liberal scholars that says the church suppressed dozens of Gospels. The reason they say? It’s because those books share scandalous information about Jesus that the church wanted to hide. They didn’t want the world to know sketchy details like Jesus tortured other kids as a child or that he had a wife.

I always thought it was passing strange that they wanted to insist that 1) Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, 2) Mary and Joseph had only one kid, and 3) that Jesus was celibate and unmarried. What's the fixation on unnatural behaviors like this? It's so strong that even 2,000 years later, the Catholics insist that only unmarried males may lead the church, and these males was be celibate. What's up with this?

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

I always thought it was passing strange that they wanted to insist that 1) Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, 2) Mary and Joseph had only one kid, and 3) that Jesus was celibate and unmarried. What's the fixation on unnatural behaviors like this? It's so strong that even 2,000 years later, the Catholics insist that only unmarried males may lead the church, and these males was be celibate. What's up with this?

And how the Church tried to make Mary Magdalene out to be a whore and charity case for Jesus- instead of his obvious lover!

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

And how the Church tried to make Mary Magdalene out to be a whore and charity case for Jesus- instead of his lover!

And of course everything bad since the creation was Eve's fault.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

And of course everything bad since the creation was Eve's fault.

What an evil bitch for eating a fucking apple!

And somehow her eating an apple ended up as an excuse to comdemn nudity forever?

Does that even make any sense what-so-ever?

It was also the introduction of a Devil or Evil Spirit to hate and fear.

You know, the way Trumptards have to have a devil to hate, and if there is not one, they will make one up like CRT, Woke, BLM, Antifa, and Science!

Did a Trumptard write the Bible?

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I always thought it was passing strange that they wanted to insist that 1) Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus

Possibly due to a misinterpretation of "almah" in the book of Isaiah. The prophecy supposedly can be read as either "virgin" OR "young woman". So it may not even be "necessary" for Mary to have been a virgin.

, 2) Mary and Joseph had only one kid,

According to Josephus, James who is mentioned in Matthew was Jesus' brother. And I believe they found an ossuary a few years back supposedly for James "the brother of Jesus"

the Catholics insist that only unmarried males may lead the church, and these males was be celibate. What's up with this?

Yeah, systematically freezing women out of roles of authority is on-brand for much of human history. The Church is no exception.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Sounds like you have made up a fine religion. Does it have any "rules"?

Is there any role for "Jesus" or his sacrifice in your version of this religion? (It sounds like it can't, because that would imply God has a "plan", so I'm still unclear what role God has if any in your daily life or in the lives of anyone anywhere at any time)....

Yes; the Rules of the Universe. No magical bullshit, just more advanced technology. Arthur C. Clarke put it best, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Yes. Despite all the heavy editing by religious leaders 300 years later, the message of Jesus comes through the actual quotes of him speaking, which often emulated the truisms of Buddhism 500 years before him. As mankind advanced in technology, a spiritual advancement allows greater chances of survival. Those constantly at war eventually wipe themselves out.

I don't do text walls. If you do, then you win. However, I do reserve the right to cherry-pick the one or three points I care to address.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Yes; the Rules of the Universe.

Fair enough. No God needed for that.

Yes. Despite all the heavy editing by religious leaders 300 years later, the message of Jesus comes through the actual quotes of him speaking,

Wait, Jesus is involved in your religion? Doesn't that indicate a 'plan' by God to atone man to himself? Or was Jesus just sayin' some nice things. I can actually get behind that. You have a religion with no necessary God (but you include one for no real reason), and that god cannot be verified by any means (he doesn't get involved and has no "plan") and Jesus was just a good guy saying good things.

Sounds about 99% atheist.

I don't do text walls.

Got it. Limited reading capability. I will attempt to remain brief.

 

[Cypress]

Yes; the Rules of the Universe.

That's one of the biggest mysteries of all. Why is there order rather than chaos? Why is there something rather than nothing? Where do the physical constants come from? Why are the critical density of the universe and the physical constants so finely tuned in such a mathmatically improbable way to allow matter, water, life?

That doesn't prove or disprove there is a higher organizing principle underlying the universe, but they are legitimate metaphysical questions.

No magical bullshit, just more advanced technology. Arthur C. Clarke put it best, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Yes. Despite all the heavy editing by religious leaders 300 years later, the message of Jesus comes through the actual quotes of him speaking, which often emulated the truisms of Buddhism 500 years before him. As mankind advanced in technology, a spiritual advancement allows greater chances of survival. Those constantly at war eventually wipe themselves out.

I don't do text walls. If you do, then you win. However, I do reserve the right to cherry-pick the one or three points I care to address.

Unless one is simply going to focus on the mythical and legendary elements of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament the Dhammapada, the Qur'an, the Daodejing then it's hard not to recognize there is something profound about how they all seem to be arcing towards a palpable set of universal moral imperatives.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. The alternate reality we exist in at the moment is the one we chose. Free Will.

We can't go backwards and change choices. We can only make choices going forward.

The theme of Dostoyevsky's 'Notes from the Underground ' is about a man who purposefully throws himself into a state of abject misery, and actively works against his own social, medical, and economic self interest to prove he is actually free and possess free will.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Fair enough. No God needed for that. ...

But you do believe in magic about the Big Bang, amirite? 1) there was nothing, 2) the magic happened, 3) Big Bang. LOL

 

[Saint Guinefort]

But you do believe in magic about the Big Bang, amirite? 1) there was nothing, 2) the magic happened, 3) Big Bang. LOL

What is the difference between that and YOUR idea of an "eternal God" or a god that simply popped into existence?

In point of fact they are COMPLETELY INDIFFERENTIABLE. At least we have EVIDENCE for the Big Bang.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That's one of the biggest mysteries of all. Why is there order rather than chaos? Why is there something rather than nothing? Where do the physical constants come from? Why are the critical density of the universe and the physical constants so finely tuned in such a mathmatically improbable way to allow matter, water, life?

That doesn't prove or disprove there is a higher organizing principle underlying the universe, but they are legitimate metaphysical questions.



Unless one is simply going to focus on the mythical and legendary elements of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament the Dhammapada, the Qur'an, the Daodejing then it's hard not to recognize there is something profound about how they all seem to be arcing towards a palpable set of universal moral imperatives.

The multiverse theory would have an infinite number of possible universes with different rules created at their Big Bang.

If "God" is truly omnipotent, then there is an infinity of universes and an infinity of possibilities...for God. For us, we're locked in this one...for the moment. LOL

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/what-is-the-multiverse

Even though certain features of the universe seem to require the existence of a multiverse, nothing has been directly observed that suggests it actually exists. So far, the evidence supporting the idea of a multiverse is purely theoretical, and in some cases, philosophical.

Some experts argue that it may be a grand cosmic coincidence that the big bang forged a perfectly balanced universe that is just right for our existence. Other scientists think it is more likely that any number of physical universes exist, and that we simply inhabit the one that has the right characteristics for our survival.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

What is the difference between that and YOUR idea of an "eternal God" or a god that simply popped into existence?

In point of fact they are COMPLETELY INDIFFERENTIABLE. At least we have EVIDENCE for the Big Bang.

I don't know. That's another step beyond. If you think of God as "the Great Programmer" or any name you like as a place cardholder for the force behind the creation of the Universe, that's enough for me. While creation is a curious thing, more important to me, YMMV, is the "Why are we here?" question. That is followed by the "Where do I go from here?" question. JPP is full of people who only focus on the beginning of mankind and not where they themselves are going.

 

[Cypress]

The multiverse theory would have an infinite number of possible universes with different rules created at their Big Bang.

If "God" is truly omnipotent, then there is an infinity of universes and an infinity of possibilities...for God. For us, we're locked in this one...for the moment. LOL

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/what-is-the-multiverse

The multiverse is a wonderful idea with exactly zero tangible evidence to back it up. In that sense, I feel like it tends to get used to try to sweep fine tuning under the carpet.

Things like the critical density of the universe and the mathematically curious convergence of the physical constants to manifest as matter, are observable and experimentally demonstrable properties of the cosmos.

Again, I don't think that either proves or disproves a higher organizing principle to reality, but it's the type of question that is has to be confronted head on

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I don't know. That's another step beyond. If you think of God as "the Great Programmer" or any name you like as a place cardholder for the force behind the creation of the Universe, that's enough for me.

Yeah but it is still the exact same as proposing a universe that has always existed or just popped into existence. Your version has a God that has either always existed or just popped into existence. One is not a better explanation than the other.

While creation is a curious thing, more important to me, YMMV, is the "Why are we here?" question.

With a deist God what possible reason could there be? And if God does not interact directly anymore with the clockwork, how on earth could anyone find out or infer?

That is followed by the "Where do I go from here?" question.

And I don't see how God plays a role in that. Since you don't appear to believe in a "plan" by God (as discussed earlier) and I don't believe in God it would seem that both converge on the same thing: that God doesn't necessarily play a part.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The theme of Dostoyevsky's 'Notes from the Underground ' is about a man who purposefully throws himself into a state of abject misery, and actively works against his own social, medical, and economic self interest to prove he is actually free and possess free will.

Thanks for the reference. It looks like an interesting read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_from_Underground#Themes_and_context
Using his fiction as a weapon of ideological discourse, Dostoevsky challenges the ideologies of his time, mainly nihilism and rational egoism

Lots of anger and talk of revenge. LOL

The times it was written is interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_from_Underground#Political_climate

Like understanding the times helps readers to better understand "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" and "Steal This Book".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The multiverse is a wonderful idea with exactly zero tangible evidence to back it up. In that sense, I feel like it tends to get used to try to sweep fine tuning under the carpet.

Things like the critical density of the universe and the mathematically curious convergence of the physical constants to manifest as matter, are observable and experimentally demonstrable properties of the cosmos.

Again, I don't think that either proves or disproves a higher organizing principle to reality, but it's the type of question that is has to be confronted head on

It's a theory with as much validity as the single universe theory. The good news is that a multiverse would answer a lot of questions about creation and life.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

It's a theory with as much validity as the single universe theory. The good news is that a multiverse would answer a lot of questions about creation and life.

All equally unknown.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yeah but it is still the exact same as proposing a universe that has always existed or just popped into existence. Your version has a God that has either always existed or just popped into existence. One is not a better explanation than the other.

With a deist God what possible reason could there be? And if God does not interact directly anymore with the clockwork, how on earth could anyone find out or infer?

And I don't see how God plays a role in that. Since you don't appear to believe in a "plan" by God (as discussed earlier) and I don't believe in God it would seem that both converge on the same thing: that God doesn't necessarily play a part.

Do you understand the concept of "place cardholder", Perry?

Entertainment. This was already covered. As for understanding God, it might help to know "time" doesn't exist in eternity..or didn't exist until after the Big Bang.

You don't believe God exists so why would you think God has any roles? Correct I don't believe there's a "plan" if you mean each of our lives are mapped-out before birth as opposed to each of us having Free Will.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

All equally unknown.

Correct. Now put all of that into a Pascal's Wager format and let me know which way people should go.