The Gospel of Thomas

Dutch Uncle said:
Do you understand the concept of "place cardholder", Perry?
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Do you understand that placeholders are all equally NOT THE THING that will go there?

My point is and remains that there is literally NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE between an "eternal God" or an "eternal Universe". Nor is there any discernible difference between a "God that came into existence ex nihilo" and a "universe that came into existence ex nihilo".

I hope that is clear. It should be. I have kept the descriptions simple and quite clear.

As for understanding God, it might help to know "time" doesn't exist in eternity..or didn't exist until after the Big Bang.
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How does that help?

You don't believe God exists so why would you think God has any roles?
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I'm fascinated at people on here who can't understand an atheist who can talk about religion. It's like none of you have ever had a philosophy class. Haven't you ever talked about something that you thought was fictional? I don't get your question.


Correct don't believe there's a "plan" if you mean each of our lives are mapped-out before birth as opposed to each of us having Free Will.
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So in your version of "plan" it CANNOT include free will? I can conceive of a deist type god who creates the universe complete with free will as one of the "factors" in the clockwork. AND STILL HAVE A PLAN for how he'd LIKE it to go.

If I built a clockwork mechanism and included something that "randomized" a step I can still HOPE it runs in a certain way.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Do you understand that placeholders are all equally NOT THE THING that will go there?

My point is and remains that there is literally NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE between an "eternal God" or an "eternal Universe". Nor is there any discernible difference between a "God that came into existence ex nihilo" and a "universe that came into existence ex nihilo".

I hope that is clear. It should be. I have kept the descriptions simple and quite clear.

How does that help?

I'm fascinated at people on here who can't understand an atheist who can talk about religion. It's like none of you have ever had a philosophy class. Haven't you ever talked about something that you thought was fictional? I don't get your question.

So in your version of "plan" it CANNOT include free will? I can conceive of a deist type god who creates the universe complete with free will as one of the "factors" in the clockwork. AND STILL HAVE A PLAN for how he'd LIKE it to go.

If I built a clockwork mechanism and included something that "randomized" a step I can still HOPE it runs in a certain way.
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Do you know LV426? You two have a lot in common including a passion for overly long posts and a lot of them in sequence. :)

Yes, the existence of anything beyond our Universe, including wherever it came from, is unknown. Happy now?

I believe people have Free Will. They don't choose their circumstances, but they can choose how they react to those circumstances.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Pascal's Wager would in no way that I can conceive be related to YOUR deistic type of God. Honestly it seems like it would fail.
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No, but it relates to your denial anything exists. I have a theory and you are upset about it. Are you a solipsist, Perry?

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Dutch Uncle said:
Do you know LV426? You two have a lot in common including a passion for overly long posts and a lot of them in sequence. :)
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Maybe LV and I both have a high level of education.

Yes, the existence of anything beyond our Universe, including wherever it came from, is unknown. Happy now?
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What do you think discussion forums are all about?

I believe people have Free Will. They don't choose their circumstances, but they can choose how they react to those circumstances.
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Good for you.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Maybe LV and I both have a high level of education.

What do you think discussion forums are all about?

Good for you.
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No doubt the both of you get along fabulously.

They vary. I've been on hobby forums, union forums, professional forums and political forums. I've been banned on a few political forums. LOL

Thanks, Perry! :thup:

Solipsism:
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Cypress said:
I have been thinking about free will from the perspective of the quantum many worlds interpretation --> in a quantum state, anything that can happen does happen.

If it's true that our conciousness at the biological level is a quantum state, maybe every decision point we reach branches into many innumerable alternate realities from that decision point.
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An example of an "alternate reality"?
 
Perry Phimosis said:
You GROSSLY oversimplify the atheist position. I'm sure some fall for this "Problem of Evil" as a reason, but not all do. Some recall Liebniz's exhortation that this is the best of all possible worlds and that the suffering that happens is the only way things can exist with a "minimized" amount of suffering (if I am recalling correctly).

The Problem of Evil is not, for me, a particularly big issue. I'm willing to accept that this is part of God's plans etc. etc. It is more interesting, though, that an omnipotent being would somehow be forced to create a lesser being and then wind up with ANY scenario in which He is required to then PUNISH those lesser beings for failing to be less imperfect.

That's a more interesting and juicy discussion point.



Another flaw in God's design is that no one, literally no one in the ENTIRE history of the ENTIRE SPECIES of humanity has EVER been able to verify the existence of the "eternal realm". In fact we have about a billion different versions of it. And each person is 100% absolutely sure ONLY THEY have the "truth".

Perhaps an omniscient God could have foreseen this eventuality? But he sits back to let countless millions if not billions of souls go to perdition for failing to believe the proper thing.
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You talk about God as if he exists???? What kind of half ass atheist are you?
 
Perry Phimosis said:
I'm an atheist on JPP which proves your contention incorrect. I hope I have clarified that for you.



That is just semantics. It doesn't really resolve the issue per se.



Are you legitimately asking this question? Have you never heard the phrase or have any familiarity with the concept? Because it is EXTREMELY common.



It doesn't apply to any particular religion. Since almost all religions suggest that God is in control.
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You're an atheist, how can "God is in control" ?
You claim God doesn't exist?
 
Geeko Sportivo said:
There’s a common refrain among liberal scholars that says the church suppressed dozens of Gospels. The reason they say? It’s because those books share scandalous information about Jesus that the church wanted to hide. They didn’t want the world to know sketchy details like Jesus tortured other kids as a child or that he had a wife.
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Church is the last place to look for God.
 
Jarod said:
I see your point and it is true. I guess what I imagine is different levels of thoughts, in most of us, to one degree to another there is an executive brain that filters the random thoughts and decides "thinks to" take action or not.

Then there is the "Shadow brain" that is thoughts we are not even conscious of.
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Then there's things like LSD that expands consciousness
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
I always thought it was passing strange that they wanted to insist that 1) Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, 2) Mary and Joseph had only one kid, and 3) that Jesus was celibate and unmarried. What's the fixation on unnatural behaviors like this? It's so strong that even 2,000 years later, the Catholics insist that only unmarried males may lead the church, and these males was be celibate. What's up with this?
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Stay clear of Catholics! Is my Spiritual advice!
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Fair enough. No God needed for that.



Wait, Jesus is involved in your religion? Doesn't that indicate a 'plan' by God to atone man to himself? Or was Jesus just sayin' some nice things. I can actually get behind that. You have a religion with no necessary God (but you include one for no real reason), and that god cannot be verified by any means (he doesn't get involved and has no "plan") and Jesus was just a good guy saying good things.

Sounds about 99% atheist.



Got it. Limited reading capability. I will attempt to remain brief.
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You're an atheist you don't believe God exists
 
Cypress said:
That's one of the biggest mysteries of all. Why is there order rather than chaos? Why is there something rather than nothing? Where do the physical constants come from? Why are the critical density of the universe and the physical constants so finely tuned in such a mathmatically improbable way to allow matter, water, life?

That doesn't prove or disprove there is a higher organizing principle underlying the universe, but they are legitimate metaphysical questions.



Unless one is simply going to focus on the mythical and legendary elements of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament the Dhammapada, the Qur'an, the Daodejing then it's hard not to recognize there is something profound about how they all seem to be arcing towards a palpable set of universal moral imperatives.
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Who engineered this machine?
 
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