The Iceage will SUCK

[Cancel 2016.2]

True. But I am sure we will see some sort of equity within our lifetimes.

Already it will pay for itself after a number of years. There are very few moving parts and it is relatively solid technology. Now running costs down is the only real goal. There is the paint option they are working on, and other options that look very promising.

I agree completely that we will see it in our lifetimes. Unlike certain others on this thread, I realize that the innovations continue within this industry.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

most experts I have seen forecast it at less than demand growth.
You guys keep eating the pie.

I will eat the pie... you continue to eat the shit.

 

[Topspin]

your a loser too supertool
what experts again
the energy information agencey in there longest forecast say 10%

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You claim to be an expert at commercial capitalism. Great. That is not the same thing as an analyst for a specific industry, nor does it make you an economist. Tell us Dixie, what is your background that makes you an expert at 'commercial capitalism'????

Capitalist market investor for the past 35 years, owner of two capitalist commercial businesses, minor in economics and business administration, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. What are YOUR credentials?

I did not derive anything. I took your exact words. You stated that "pinheads" were in charge of alt energy and that if they went to capitalism then things might work. I pointed out to you that "pinheads" are not in charge of the industry. Capitalists are.

Nope... Pinhead environmentalist liberals are in charge of alternative energy... it's their "baby" and they will never give it up to capitalists. There are some capitalists who are interested and would like to get involved, but pinheads see this as a danger and a threat, and will ultimately try to prevent any capitalistic success regarding alternative energy.

The Germans are not restricting capitalism you idiot, they are removing subsidies.

'

...Which is restricting capitalism! That's the part you pinheads don't comprehend. When you give capitalists incentives and make it attractive for them to invest in something, sure they make more profits, but they also bring industry success for us all concerned.

Again you state above that capitalists need to get involved.... Do you see where that implies they are not currently involved? Idiot.

I see where you are an idiot, I don't see where capitalists are involved with alternative energy to any large degree, because it is not profitable for them to be involved at this point.

yes, the costs are not competitive NOW. That is not the argument being made Dizie.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the possibility of alternative energy in our near future. If it's not competitive, it will not be implemented in our near future... thanks for making mine and Toppy's point!

Side note... I asked to hear an opinion from an expert on the industry. You claimed to be an expert. Then show a complete lack of knowledge on the industry as a whole.

No, you asked for an expert who said alt energy has no chance, and I gave you what you asked for. Then you changed your mind and asked for an expert in the field of alternative energy who says it has no chance, and that is not likely to be found. Then you switched again, and claimed an economics or market expert would do, and at this point, I am not clear on what kind of "expert" you need to hear from. To me, it's pretty simple, if alternative energy isn't competitive, it isn't viable as a replacement for traditional energy sources. It's also pretty clear to me, if pinheads are allowed to be in charge of alternative energy, we will not see a viable source of alternative energy in our lifetime, because they will not allow capitalist ventures to work.

AS for this.... "As Toppy said, maybe in 50 years... but we'll all be dead by then" .... this actually made me laugh. Here we are talking about what will happen over the next 40 years and you two are all 'no way will it happen in 40, impossible!...blah blah blah' then you come back and say 'maybe in 50'.

You two are hopeless.

LOL... So now you are moving the goal post up to 40 years from now? Well, maybe there is hope for some compromise on this issue with you! Why don't we split the difference and say, if pinheads get out of the capitalists way, perhaps we will see an alternative fuel source emerge in 45 years!

 

[Onceler]

Dixie, you're a bonehead - the crux of the entire discussion has been whether alt energy can effectively fulfill the majority of our energy needs by mid-century.

Sorry you came in late, and tried to sound like you knew everything.

 

[Cancel7]

Outstanding...

Onceler you always tempt me to say the baddest things.

 

[tinfoil]

I'm an expert and I say alt energy doesn't have a chance. There is no progress being made in solar, it is essentially the same principle it has always been and will always be. The primary stumbling block at this time, is cost.

The reason I can say alt energy doesn't have a chance is, because pinhead liberals are at the forefront. You guys totally don't believe in capitalism and free markets, you prefer socialism and government controls. This is why there is no chance for alt energy to ever emerge to the point of overtaking the current energy sources. IF you idiots could grow a brain and learn to accept capitalism and free markets, there might be a chance for alt energy, but you won't do that. Instead, you'll try to mandate it and force it down our throats by instigating governmental controls and regulation, and this will result in resistance by capitalism.

Eventually, the cost of energy will rise to a point where alt energy becomes attractive to capitalists, and you will get what you could have had 50 years earlier. This will cause you to all stand up (and cast aside your walkers) to claim a moral victory, like the idiot pinheads you are! The thought that you could have had alt energy 50 years earlier, won't even enter your pinheaded minds.

+1 would read again

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie, you're a bonehead - the crux of the entire discussion has been whether alt energy can effectively fulfill the majority of our energy needs by mid-century.

Sorry you came in late, and tried to sound like you knew everything.

No, you are the bonehead, or more precisely, the pinhead! I have read the thread discussion, it is 5 pages of you and Superfool (aka: tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb) pontificating on how alt fuel will almost totally replace oil by 2050. 80% is what is claimed, with oil still holding 20% of the energy market. Top has pointed out how ludicrous this "dream" is, and Duhla has interjected nothingness from time to time.

Now... I will say, it is feasibly possible for alt fuel to dominate by 2050, but the things that would have to happen, are not going to happen in the universe we live in. So, it's a dream. You can believe in a dream if you like, nothing will stop you from that, and sometimes, it is good to dream! (I'm sure Duhla has a comment on this.) Nevertheless, alternative fuels will not replace oil for many decades, it's simple economics. At the present time, it is pinhead liberal environmentalists pushing alt fuel technology, and not capitalists. As long as that dynamic remains the same, alt fuels are dead in the water.

Here's an example of what I am saying, just so you can get an idea... Let's say we tell the Big 3, you go develop and market an alt fuel vehicle, it can't burn fossil fuels at all, and any research & development costs are tax exempt, AND... any profits you make in the next 20 years on these vehicles, is also tax exempt. At the same time, we tell the energy companies, you build viable fueling stations for the alternative fuel vehicles, and all of your profits for the next 20 years, are tax exempt. Chances are, in the next 20 years, we would see remarkable things happen, because capitalists have an incentive! Even with some program like this, it would be difficult to replace oil to even a 50% level, because of heating oil, farm equipment, 18-wheelers, airplanes, and other things that would still require oil energy to operate. Not to mention, all of the "poor people" out there, who couldn't afford to buy a new alt fuel vehicle, and would opt to keep their gas-burner as long as it ran.

This is why it will take 50 years, at a minimum, for alt fuels to effectively replace oil as a predominate fuel source. That is an optimistic goal at best, it may be 'dreaming' to even think it possible in 50 years. And if pinheads aren't going to relinquish control of alt energy to capitalists, I don't think THAT is even possible. The point is, for alternative energy to have a chance, capitalism will have to get involved in a big way, otherwise, it will be a long long road to alternative energy replacing oil as our main source of fuel.

Now let's examine what will happen if and when capitalists do get involved in a big way... they will naturally make huge profits, and as soon as this starts to happen, pinhead liberals will start to scream and moan about Big Alt Fuel! Taxes and regulations will be passed and mandated, choking the profitability in the industry, and stalling any progress in oil independence. Your kids will be screaming about how it's not fair the Alt Energy companies make so much money, while people are homeless and school kids are starving. They will feel the need to provide for the elderly who have no Social Security anymore, is far more important than giving another tax break to Alt Fuel!

 

[Onceler]

Whenever you say something stupid...wait, let me start that again, since you pretty much always say something stupid. Whenever you say something REALLY stupid, you just write a lot of words & hope no one will notice.

I guess it's what most of us used to do on essays in school when we hadn't studied or didn't really know the answer. I haven't done it in decades, though.

 

[Damocles]

and that is also 2030... not 2050. It quadrupled in 21 years. It then has another 20 years to hit the 2050 number we were discussing toppy.

I'm amazed that most people don't understand that once technology starts really rolling that improvements come exponentially. All one has to do is look at computers.

Shoot even Bill Gates was one time wondering what anybody would do with a Megabyte of memory, now Gigs aren't enough.

 

[Topspin]

We'll see, each year imports of oil are going up. So not only are we not moving away from oil, we're imbracing foreign oil.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"No, you are the bonehead, or more precisely, the pinhead! I have read the thread discussion, it is 5 pages of you and Superfool (aka: tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb) pontificating on how alt fuel will almost totally replace oil by 2050. 80% is what is claimed, with oil still holding 20% of the energy market. Top has pointed out how ludicrous this "dream" is, and Duhla has interjected nothingness from time to time. "

Except that is NOT what was said dizie.... it was said that alt energy could reach 50% and that oil would be about 20%.... so you were close, but obviously need to pay closer attention.

"Now... I will say, it is feasibly possible for alt fuel to dominate by 2050, but the things that would have to happen, are not going to happen in the universe we live in. So, it's a dream. You can believe in a dream if you like, nothing will stop you from that, and sometimes, it is good to dream! (I'm sure Duhla has a comment on this.) Nevertheless, alternative fuels will not replace oil for many decades, it's simple economics. At the present time, it is pinhead liberal environmentalists pushing alt fuel technology, and not capitalists. As long as that dynamic remains the same, alt fuels are dead in the water. "

you continue to pretend that it is 'environmentalists' in charge of alt energy. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of alt energy companies. They are called capitalists dizie. You know... the thing you are supposedly an expert on. When you pull you head out of toppys ass, go take a look at the California Clean Tech open. It is a BUSINESS plan competition for clean technology. It is expanding to the Rocky Mountain region this year and plans to become a national competition. It is designed to encourage NEW technologies.... a perfect example of capitalism.... you know... the thing you are supposedly an expert on.

"This is why it will take 50 years, at a minimum, for alt fuels to effectively replace oil as a predominate fuel source. That is an optimistic goal at best, it may be 'dreaming' to even think it possible in 50 years. And if pinheads aren't going to relinquish control of alt energy to capitalists, I don't think THAT is even possible. The point is, for alternative energy to have a chance, capitalism will have to get involved in a big way, otherwise, it will be a long long road to alternative energy replacing oil as our main source of fuel. "

Again, I state to you the same thing I said to Toppy... in the mid 1980's most people laughed at the idea that personal computers would become a household staple, most people laughed at the idea that a majority of people would have a cell phone. When the internet first came out, people scoffed at the speed, laughed at those who used that 'email' thing. Yet you had people like Gates, Jobs and Dell that believed and they produced one of the great technological revolutions our country has seen.

Now let's examine what will happen if and when capitalists do get involved in a big way... they will naturally make huge profits, and as soon as this starts to happen, pinhead liberals will start to scream and moan about Big Alt Fuel! Taxes and regulations will be passed and mandated, choking the profitability in the industry, and stalling any progress in oil independence. Your kids will be screaming about how it's not fair the Alt Energy companies make so much money, while people are homeless and school kids are starving. They will feel the need to provide for the elderly who have no Social Security anymore, is far more important than giving another tax break to Alt Fuel!

Again you are showing your ignorance of the industry. Capitalists ALREADY ARE involved in a big way.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"Capitalist market investor for the past 35 years, owner of two capitalist commercial businesses, minor in economics and business administration, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. What are YOUR credentials? "

LMAO.... 'capitalist market investor'???? As opposed to what.... a 'socialist market investor'. I have a degree in economics and finance, have worked in investments for the past 13 years. I work with a clean tech incubator that helps start ups in the sector get going and help with their VC raises. But I know... that is just environmentalists... not capitalists.... idiot.

"Nope... Pinhead environmentalist liberals are in charge of alternative energy... it's their "baby" and they will never give it up to capitalists. There are some capitalists who are interested and would like to get involved, but pinheads see this as a danger and a threat, and will ultimately try to prevent any capitalistic success regarding alternative energy. "

This is where you are hopelessly wrong. You continue spouting this off and showing your complete ignorance on the sector.

"...Which is restricting capitalism! That's the part you pinheads don't comprehend. When you give capitalists incentives and make it attractive for them to invest in something, sure they make more profits, but they also bring industry success for us all concerned. "

Removing government subsidies is not RESTRICTIVE you moron. Taxes are restrictive, regulations are restrictive. Subsidies are an incentive, like you mention, but removing them are NOT restrictive.

"I see where you are an idiot, I don't see where capitalists are involved with alternative energy to any large degree, because it is not profitable for them to be involved at this point. "

LMAO... there are VC firms that are dedicated to the clean tech sector you moron. There are also HUNDREDS of firms within solar, wind, biofuel etc. Look at Corning, FSLR, LDK, TSL... just to name a few.

"Sorry, I thought we were talking about the possibility of alternative energy in our near future. If it's not competitive, it will not be implemented in our near future... thanks for making mine and Toppy's point! "

That was not what we were discussing moron. We were discussing the potential for alt energy to reach 50% by mid century. No one, not even toppy, was discussing it replacing oil in the near term.


LOL... So now you are moving the goal post up to 40 years from now? Well, maybe there is hope for some compromise on this issue with you! Why don't we split the difference and say, if pinheads get out of the capitalists way, perhaps we will see an alternative fuel source emerge in 45 years!

No moron.... you are the only one moving the goal posts. The only 'pinhead' on this thread is you. You do realize how moronic you sound don't you?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Except that is NOT what was said dizie.... it was said that alt energy could reach 50% and that oil would be about 20%.... so you were close, but obviously need to pay closer attention.

Do you even understand, in your retarded state, what the word "alternative" means, in alternative fuel? It means "alternative to fossil fuels, namely oil!" I know I get a lot of knocks for my math skills here, but please tell me how 50%+20%=100% ...or are we going to have a 30% shortage of energy? Perhaps the missing 30% is going to come from your brain? ...or magic bunnies? hmmmm? Nope, that would be "an alternative" too! The fact of the matter is, we get about 93% of our energy from fossil fuel, and most of that is oil, the remaining 7% is known as "alternative" energy.

you continue to pretend that it is 'environmentalists' in charge of alt energy. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of alt energy companies. They are called capitalists dizie. You know... the thing you are supposedly an expert on. When you pull you head out of toppys ass, go take a look at the California Clean Tech open. It is a BUSINESS plan competition for clean technology. It is expanding to the Rocky Mountain region this year and plans to become a national competition. It is designed to encourage NEW technologies.... a perfect example of capitalism.... you know... the thing you are supposedly an expert on.

Aww... how cute, pinheads are having a contest? This could be interesting!!

Again, I state to you the same thing I said to Toppy... in the mid 1980's most people laughed at the idea that personal computers would become a household staple, most people laughed at the idea that a majority of people would have a cell phone. When the internet first came out, people scoffed at the speed, laughed at those who used that 'email' thing. Yet you had people like Gates, Jobs and Dell that believed and they produced one of the great technological revolutions our country has seen.

The main problem with your inane comparison is, people are not tied to the antithesis of cell phones, the internet and email, in their everyday energy needs. Now, if someone is going to come along and invent something that renders energy as we know it obsolete, yeah... we may see oil reduced to 20% of our energy needs by 2050! ...I like the magic bunny idea!

LMAO.... 'capitalist market investor'???? As opposed to what.... a 'socialist market investor'. I have a degree in economics and finance, have worked in investments for the past 13 years. I work with a clean tech incubator that helps start ups in the sector get going and help with their VC raises. But I know... that is just environmentalists... not capitalists.... idiot.

Proving my earlier point that pinheads are in charge of the alternative energy sector!

Removing government subsidies is not RESTRICTIVE you moron. Taxes are restrictive, regulations are restrictive. Subsidies are an incentive, like you mention, but removing them are NOT restrictive.

Removing incentives has the effect of being restrictive. This is a concept pinheads have trouble with, but it is the case. Incentives encourage things, that is why the local furniture store offers you an incentive to buy their stuff, and if they didn't, it would restrict the number of customers they would get.

LMAO... there are VC firms that are dedicated to the clean tech sector you moron. There are also HUNDREDS of firms within solar, wind, biofuel etc. Look at Corning, FSLR, LDK, TSL... just to name a few.

LMAO... Who ever said that pinheads didn't sometimes try capitalism? Of course, most of them are like you, and have no clue of how to practice capitalism, and eventually fail at capitalist ventures, but the important thing is, they keep trying!

That was not what we were discussing moron. We were discussing the potential for alt energy to reach 50% by mid century. No one, not even toppy, was discussing it replacing oil in the near term.

Yeah, you and the other idiot were pretty much fawning over each other at the possibility of this happening in the next 15 to 20 years. I refer you to your own examples above, about cell phones and the internet! It's an interesting strategy you have, you want to imply that we are on the brink of this monumental transformation, then you dart back to 2050, which is 40 years from now! Alternatives to oil are going to be responsible for 50% of our energy needs, but oil will only be responsible for 20%... You want expert opinions, but then you want to qualify what kind of experts are acceptable... You are all over the board with this stuff, and it just seems pathetic to me.

 

[Onceler]

Talk about moving the goalposts.

Dixie's the ultimate spin machine. You can show him/it a post that completely contradicts his from only a few posts back, but he'll find a way to turn it on its head.

As I've said, it's a real gift...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"Do you even understand, in your retarded state, what the word "alternative" means, in alternative fuel? It means "alternative to fossil fuels, namely oil!" I know I get a lot of knocks for my math skills here, but please tell me how 50%+20%=100% ...or are we going to have a 30% shortage of energy? Perhaps the missing 30% is going to come from your brain? ...or magic bunnies? hmmmm? Nope, that would be "an alternative" too! The fact of the matter is, we get about 93% of our energy from fossil fuel, and most of that is oil, the remaining 7% is known as "alternative" energy. "

LMAO... poor little dizie, such poor reading comprehension skills. We said that alt energy would make up 50%, that oil would be about 20% or less. There is NOTHING wrong with that statement dizie. You see we did not say that alt energy was 50% and fossil fuels would be under 20%. We said OIL dizie. That leaves the other 30% for coal, nat gas etc....


"Aww... how cute, pinheads are having a contest? This could be interesting!!"

Again.... so venture capitalists and entreprenuers are 'pinheads'? These are businiesses dizie. Not environmental groups.

"The main problem with your inane comparison is, people are not tied to the antithesis of cell phones, the internet and email, in their everyday energy needs. Now, if someone is going to come along and invent something that renders energy as we know it obsolete, yeah... we may see oil reduced to 20% of our energy needs by 2050! ...I like the magic bunny idea! "

The above is complete idiocy. How can you fail to see the comparison. It was the same bullshit. Take a look at cell phones when they first came out. Popular sentiment at the time was that they were 'too big' 'too bulky' 'lacked range' blah blah blah... no way would they be able to make them smaller as chips were already as small as they could get.... blah blah blah. The point dear little dizzie is that people are almost always skeptical about new technologies and the ability of those technologies to become cost competitive. To pretend the situation is not the same just because you proclaim 'well cell phones aren't tied to energy needs'... again shows your ignorance on capitalism.

"Proving my earlier point that pinheads are in charge of the alternative energy sector! "

Nothing that has been said dear little dizzie makes the case for that. You are the only fool to believe such nonsense. You continue to ignore all of the businesses that exist within alt energy. You laugh at business plan competitions and incubators for clean tech and pretend they are not capitalistic. You are an idiot.


"Removing incentives has the effect of being restrictive. This is a concept pinheads have trouble with, but it is the case. Incentives encourage things, that is why the local furniture store offers you an incentive to buy their stuff, and if they didn't, it would restrict the number of customers they would get. "

Tell us ditzie... since when is government intervention required for capitalism?



"LMAO... Who ever said that pinheads didn't sometimes try capitalism? Of course, most of them are like you, and have no clue of how to practice capitalism, and eventually fail at capitalist ventures, but the important thing is, they keep trying! "

Again moron, there are many successful alt energy companies out there. Your ignoring them, is not going to change that.


"Yeah, you and the other idiot were pretty much fawning over each other at the possibility of this happening in the next 15 to 20 years. I refer you to your own examples above, about cell phones and the internet! It's an interesting strategy you have, you want to imply that we are on the brink of this monumental transformation, then you dart back to 2050, which is 40 years from now! Alternatives to oil are going to be responsible for 50% of our energy needs, but oil will only be responsible for 20%... You want expert opinions, but then you want to qualify what kind of experts are acceptable... You are all over the board with this stuff, and it just seems pathetic to me.

First and foremost dizzie... YOU are most certainly NOT an expert. You have proven that on this thread alone.

Second, we never stated that this would happen in the next 15-20 years.... so if you truly believe your own ignorance, then kindly show us where we stated that.

Third, the comparison to the PCs, the internet, cell phones, was to demonstrate how ideas can start off slow and then show exponential growth in a period that is SHORTER than the one we are talking about for alt energy. They were comparisons that showed how technological advances in an industry can explode from minimal market penetration to near saturation within a couple of decades. Which was done to show toppy that it is ridiculous to proclaim...'alt energy is only 7% now and thus cannot possibly reach 50% in 40 years'.

Fourth.... take your hick ass to a place like MIT, Colorado State University or any of the other institutions producing leading technology in alt energy. Take a tour of their facilities. Learn about the new products and ideas that are being developed. Then you might finally understand that we are on the brink of many new technologies coming to market. But we are currently at the equivalent of the PC universe in the mid 80's. Not where computers were five years ago.

lastly, I am not 'all over the board' poor dizzie. I have remained consistent throughout the thread. You simply either skimmed the thread and did not grasp the conversation or you are an idiot that is incapable of comprehending the discussion.

 

[uscitizen]

Plug in hybrid cars are the logical first stage.

They can be used for short trips with no petro fuel used. For longer trips the petro is used.

apologies if this has been covered in this thread, I did not read all the replies.

 

[Topspin]

another soon to flop detroit failure,
only evironmentalist and a few activist are willing to plug in.

 

[uscitizen]

another soon to flop detroit failure,
only evironmentalist and a few activist are willing to plug in.

At $2 gas yes, but as soon as things recover we will be back around $4 gas.

Actually if the price rises too fast it will delay the recovery.

 

[Topspin]

At $4 gas you could have decent adoption rates for hybrids.
But if any of you have check, most electric cars are $40,000 plus (volt)
that's way above where economy buyers are at.
It totally doesn't make financial sense when you can get a better performing and handling civic or equivalent for under $20,000 and still get 35 mph hwy.