The National Collaborativist Thread

Perhaps those third world workers would prefer to return to working in their mud fields for absolutely nothing.
They probably do. I would.
American workers, as you have pointed out, are free....and therefore free to get a new job, protest their conditions, etc.

I help those who help themselves.

Or free to lobby their government to disallow goods into the country made by wage slaves. It is impossible to for free people to compete with slaves without becoming slaves themselves. Continuing to trade in this fashion is national suicide.
 
gonzo, you really need to be disabused of your pollyanna notions regarding globalization.

Read this

http://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold

JOE STIGLITZ: TODAY’S WINNER OF THE NOBEL PRIZE IN ECONOMICS

by Greg Palast

The World Bank’s former Chief Economist’s accusations are eye-popping - including how the IMF and US Treasury fixed the Russian elections

“It has condemned people to death,” the former apparatchik told me. This was like a scene out of Le Carre. The brilliant old agent comes in from the cold, crosses to our side, and in hours of debriefing, empties his memory of horrors committed in the name of a political ideology he now realizes has gone rotten.

And here before me was a far bigger catch than some used Cold War spy. Joseph Stiglitz was Chief Economist of the World Bank. To a great extent, the new world economic order was his theory come to life.

I “debriefed” Stigltiz over several days, at Cambridge University, in a London hotel and finally in Washington in April 2001 during the big confab of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. But instead of chairing the meetings of ministers and central bankers, Stiglitz was kept exiled safely behind the blue police cordons, the same as the nuns carrying a large wooden cross, the Bolivian union leaders, the parents of AIDS victims and the other ‘anti-globalization’ protesters. The ultimate insider was now on the outside.

In 1999 the World Bank fired Stiglitz. He was not allowed quiet retirement; US Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, I’m told, demanded a public excommunication for Stiglitz’ having expressed his first mild dissent from globalization World Bank style.

Here in Washington we completed the last of several hours of exclusive interviews for The Observer and BBC TV’s Newsnight about the real, often hidden, workings of the IMF, World Bank, and the bank’s 51% owner, the US Treasury.

And here, from sources unnamable (not Stiglitz), we obtained a cache of documents marked, “confidential,” “restricted,” and “not otherwise (to be) disclosed without World Bank authorization.”

Stiglitz helped translate one from bureaucratise, a “Country Assistance Strategy.” There’s an Assistance Strategy for every poorer nation, designed, says the World Bank, after careful in-country investigation. But according to insider Stiglitz, the Bank’s staff ‘investigation’ consists of close inspection of a nation’s 5-star hotels. It concludes with the Bank staff meeting some begging, busted finance minister who is handed a ‘restructuring agreement’ pre-drafted for his ‘voluntary’ signature (I have a selection of these).

Each nation’s economy is individually analyzed, then, says Stiglitz, the Bank hands every minister the same exact four-step program.

Step One is Privatization - which Stiglitz said could more accurately be called, ‘Briberization.’ Rather than object to the sell-offs of state industries, he said national leaders - using the World Bank’s demands to silence local critics - happily flogged their electricity and water companies. “You could see their eyes widen” at the prospect of 10% commissions paid to Swiss bank accounts for simply shaving a few billion off the sale price of national assets.

And the US government knew it, charges Stiglitz, at least in the case of the biggest ‘briberization’ of all, the 1995 Russian sell-off. “The US Treasury view was this was great as we wanted Yeltsin re-elected. We don’t care if it’s a corrupt election. We want the money to go to Yeltzin” via kick-backs for his campaign.

Stiglitz is no conspiracy nutter ranting about Black Helicopters. The man was inside the game, a member of Bill Clinton’s cabinet as Chairman of the President’s council of economic advisors.

Most ill-making for Stiglitz is that the US-backed oligarchs stripped Russia’s industrial assets, with the effect that the corruption scheme cut national output nearly in half causing depression and starvation.

After briberization, Step Two of the IMF/World Bank one-size-fits-all rescue-your-economy plan is ‘Capital Market Liberalization.’ In theory, capital market deregulation allows investment capital to flow in and out. Unfortunately, as in Indonesia and Brazil, the money simply flowed out and out. Stiglitz calls this the “Hot Money” cycle. Cash comes in for speculation in real estate and currency, then flees at the first whiff of trouble. A nation’s reserves can drain in days, hours. And when that happens, to seduce speculators into returning a nation’s own capital funds, the IMF demands these nations raise interest rates to 30%, 50% and 80%.

“The result was predictable,” said Stiglitz of the Hot Money tidal waves in Asia and Latin America. Higher interest rates demolished property values, savaged industrial production and drained national treasuries.

At this point, the IMF drags the gasping nation to Step Three: Market-Based Pricing, a fancy term for raising prices on food, water and cooking gas. This leads, predictably, to Step-Three-and-a-Half: what Stiglitz calls, “The IMF riot.”

The IMF riot is painfully predictable. When a nation is, “down and out, [the IMF] takes advantage and squeezes the last pound of blood out of them. They turn up the heat until, finally, the whole cauldron blows up,” as when the IMF eliminated food and fuel subsidies for the poor in Indonesia in 1998. Indonesia exploded into riots, but there are other examples - the Bolivian riots over water prices last year and this February, the riots in Ecuador over the rise in cooking gas prices imposed by the World Bank. You’d almost get the impression that the riot is written into the plan.

And it is. What Stiglitz did not know is that, while in the States, BBC and The Observer obtained several documents from inside the World Bank, stamped over with those pesky warnings, “confidential,” “restricted,” “not to be disclosed.” Let’s get back to one: the “Interim Country Assistance Strategy” for Ecuador, in it the Bank several times states - with cold accuracy - that they expected their plans to spark, “social unrest,” to use their bureaucratic term for a nation in flames.

That’s not surprising. The secret report notes that the plan to make the US dollar Ecuador’s currency has pushed 51% of the population below the poverty line. The World Bank “Assistance” plan simply calls for facing down civil strife and suffering with, “political resolve” - and still higher prices.

The IMF riots (and by riots I mean peaceful demonstrations dispersed by bullets, tanks and teargas) cause new panicked flights of capital and government bankruptcies. This economic arson has it’s bright side - for foreign corporations, who can then pick off remaining assets, such as the odd mining concession or port, at fire sale prices.

Stiglitz notes that the IMF and World Bank are not heartless adherents to market economics. At the same time the IMF stopped Indonesia ’subsidizing’ food purchases, “when the banks need a bail-out, intervention (in the market) is welcome.” The IMF scrounged up tens of billions of dollars to save Indonesia’s financiers and, by extension, the US and European banks from which they had borrowed.

A pattern emerges. There are lots of losers in this system but one clear winner: the Western banks and US Treasury, making the big bucks off this crazy new international capital churn. Stiglitz told me about his unhappy meeting, early in his World Bank tenure, with Ethopia’s new president in the nation’s first democratic election. The World Bank and IMF had ordered Ethiopia to divert aid money to its reserve account at the US Treasury, which pays a pitiful 4% return, while the nation borrowed US dollars at 12% to feed its population. The new president begged Stiglitz to let him use the aid money to rebuild the nation. But no, the loot went straight off to the US Treasury’s vault in Washington.

Now we arrive at Step Four of what the IMF and World Bank call their “poverty reduction strategy”: Free Trade. This is free trade by the rules of the World Trade Organization and World Bank, Stiglitz the insider likens free trade WTO-style to the Opium Wars. “That too was about opening markets,” he said. As in the 19th century, Europeans and Americans today are kicking down the barriers to sales in Asia, Latin American and Africa, while barricading our own markets against Third World agriculture.

In the Opium Wars, the West used military blockades to force open markets for their unbalanced trade. Today, the World Bank can order a financial blockade just as effective - and sometimes just as deadly.

Stiglitz is particularly emotional over the WTO’s intellectual property rights treaty (it goes by the acronym TRIPS, more on that in the next chapters). It is here, says the economist, that the new global order has “condemned people to death” by imposing impossible tariffs and tributes to pay to pharmaceutical companies for branded medicines. “They don’t care,” said the professor of the corporations and bank loans he worked with, “if people live or die.”

By the way, don’t be confused by the mix in this discussion of the IMF, World Bank and WTO. They are interchangeable masks of a single governance system. They have locked themselves together by what are unpleasantly called, “triggers.” Taking a World Bank loan for a school ‘triggers’ a requirement to accept every ‘conditionality’ - they average 111 per nation - laid down by both the World Bank and IMF. In fact, said Stiglitz the IMF requires nations to accept trade policies more punitive than the official WTO rules.

Stiglitz greatest concern is that World Bank plans, devised in secrecy and driven by an absolutist ideology, are never open for discourse or dissent. Despite the West’s push for elections throughout the developing world, the so-called Poverty Reduction Programs “undermine democracy.”

And they don’t work. Black Africa’s productivity under the guiding hand of IMF structural “assistance” has gone to hell in a handbag. Did any nation avoid this fate? Yes, said Stiglitz, identifying Botswana. Their trick? “They told the IMF to go packing.”

So then I turned on Stiglitz. OK, Mr Smart-Guy Professor, how would you help developing nations? Stiglitz proposed radical land reform, an attack at the heart of “landlordism,” on the usurious rents charged by the propertied oligarchies worldwide, typically 50% of a tenant’s crops. So I had to ask the professor: as you were top economist at the World Bank, why didn’t the Bank follow your advice?

“If you challenge [land ownership], that would be a change in the power of the elites. That’s not high on their agenda.” Apparently not.

Ultimately, what drove him to put his job on the line was the failure of the banks and US Treasury to change course when confronted with the crises - failures and suffering perpetrated by their four-step monetarist mambo. Every time their free market solutions failed, the IMF simply demanded more free market policies.

“It’s a little like the Middle Ages,” the insider told me, “When the patient died they would say, “well, he stopped the bloodletting too soon, he still had a little blood in him.”

I took away from my talks with the professor that the solution to world poverty and crisis is simple: remove the bloodsuckers.

******

Tell me what you don't understand or why you think this shit is noble or good.
 
Lol....that article was certainly amusing (and clearly from such a credible source!)...let me guess, you have "Behold a Pale Horse" by William Cooper on your nightstand.
 
Lol....that article was certainly amusing (and clearly from such a credible source!)...let me guess, you have "Behold a Pale Horse" by William Cooper on your nightstand.

Do you think the article is wrong in some way? If so, what way? Or are you just whistling dixie out your ignorant sphincter again?
 
Do you think the article is wrong in some way? If so, what way? Or are you just whistling dixie out your ignorant sphincter again?

I think that article is full of weasel words and conspiracy bullshit...not to mention I tend to eschew articles constructed like a narrative...only Thompson could get away with that, and he wasn't exactly an example of objective journalism.
 
I think that article is full of weasel words and conspiracy bullshit...not to mention I tend to eschew articles constructed like a narrative...only Thompson could get away with that, and he wasn't exactly an example of objective journalism.

What is false? Can you even give a fucking answer you cretin? What is characterized inaccurately?
 
This will be a breakdown of the article, so that AHZ shuts the fuck up.

First of all, a website named after the writer is probably credible as hell. This is a man whose own site bio describes him as challenging "the New Global Order", so I am sure what is basically his blog (despite some journalistic success in the UK and with leftists in America) is absolute truth.

JOE STIGLITZ: TODAY’S WINNER OF THE NOBEL PRIZE IN ECONOMICS

by Greg Palast

The World Bank’s former Chief Economist’s accusations are eye-popping - including how the IMF and US Treasury fixed the Russian elections
How are they eye-popping? How did the IMF and US Treasury fix the Russian election (as in, through what means), and why? What interests were served?

“It has condemned people to death,” the former apparatchik told me. This was like a scene out of Le Carre.
How so, and why the narrative?
The brilliant
How is he brilliant? What makes him brilliant, and why the descriptive qualities? Is he a journalist or a fucking novelist?
old agent comes in from the cold, crosses to our side, and in hours of debriefing, empties his memory of horrors committed in the name of a political ideology he now realizes has gone rotten.
What political ideology, and how has it gone rotten? What great information was he party to that he "debriefed" them (which implies that he briefed them beforehand).

And here before me was a far bigger catch than some used Cold War spy. Joseph Stiglitz was Chief Economist of the World Bank. To a great extent, the new world economic order was his theory come to life.

I “debriefed” Stigltiz over several days, at Cambridge University, in a London hotel and finally in Washington in April 2001 during the big confab of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. But instead of chairing the meetings of ministers and central bankers, Stiglitz was kept exiled safely behind the blue police cordons, the same as the nuns carrying a large wooden cross, the Bolivian union leaders, the parents of AIDS victims and the other ‘anti-globalization’ protesters. The ultimate insider was now on the outside.

In 1999 the World Bank fired Stiglitz. He was not allowed quiet retirement; US Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, I’m told, demanded a public excommunication for Stiglitz’ having expressed his first mild dissent from globalization World Bank style.
I suppose there is some evidence of this?

Here in Washington we completed the last of several hours of exclusive interviews for The Observer and BBC TV’s Newsnight about the real, often hidden, workings of the IMF, World Bank, and the bank’s 51% owner, the US Treasury.
You have links to these hours of exclusive interviews?

And here, from sources unnamable (not Stiglitz), we obtained a cache of documents marked, “confidential,” “restricted,” and “not otherwise (to be) disclosed without World Bank authorization.”
Narrative-blogger talk for "golden tablets you can't see".

Stiglitz helped translate one from bureaucratise, a “Country Assistance Strategy.” There’s an Assistance Strategy for every poorer nation, designed, says the World Bank, after careful in-country investigation. But according to insider Stiglitz, the Bank’s staff ‘investigation’ consists of close inspection of a nation’s 5-star hotels. It concludes with the Bank staff meeting some begging, busted finance minister who is handed a ‘restructuring agreement’ pre-drafted for his ‘voluntary’ signature (I have a selection of these).
Well, we should drop what we are doing and listen to one guy rather than look at what the IMF and World Bank do year after year to help developing countries.

Each nation’s economy is individually analyzed, then, says Stiglitz, the Bank hands every minister the same exact four-step program.
Individually analysed! The bastards! How dare they come up with a plan on how to help an economically disadvantaged country!

Step One is Privatization - which Stiglitz said could more accurately be called, ‘Briberization.’ Rather than object to the sell-offs of state industries, he said national leaders - using the World Bank’s demands to silence local critics - happily flogged their electricity and water companies. “You could see their eyes widen” at the prospect of 10% commissions paid to Swiss bank accounts for simply shaving a few billion off the sale price of national assets.
Swiss bank accounts...now you are just appealing to the crazies that believe in James Bond.

And the US government knew it, charges Stiglitz, at least in the case of the biggest ‘briberization’ of all, the 1995 Russian sell-off. “The US Treasury view was this was great as we wanted Yeltsin re-elected. We don’t care if it’s a corrupt election. We want the money to go to Yeltzin” via kick-backs for his campaign.
Certainly you have evidence of this?

Stiglitz is no conspiracy nutter ranting about Black Helicopters.
Here's a hint: if you have to deny it, you probably are.

The man was inside the game, a member of Bill Clinton’s cabinet as Chairman of the President’s council of economic advisors.
Which consists of what? Clinton's economic advisors, which have even less sway on the economy than he did (minimal, at best.) I think someone needs to learn about the Federal Reserve and how money actually works.

Most ill-making for Stiglitz is that the US-backed oligarchs stripped Russia’s industrial assets, with the effect that the corruption scheme cut national output nearly in half causing depression and starvation.
Those damn US-backed oligarchs that are nameless and ominously referred to! The depression, by the way, was caused by the Russian Prohibition, which was even less successful (and shorter lived) than the US one.

After briberization, Step Two of the IMF/World Bank one-size-fits-all rescue-your-economy plan is ‘Capital Market Liberalization.’ In theory, capital market deregulation allows investment capital to flow in and out. Unfortunately, as in Indonesia and Brazil, the money simply flowed out and out. Stiglitz calls this the “Hot Money” cycle. Cash comes in for speculation in real estate and currency, then flees at the first whiff of trouble. A nation’s reserves can drain in days, hours. And when that happens, to seduce speculators into returning a nation’s own capital funds, the IMF demands these nations raise interest rates to 30%, 50% and 80%.
Those damn capitalists coming in to provide jobs and an actual economy...we should just cut off all business with other countries and wait for our society to collapse in peace.

“The result was predictable,” said Stiglitz of the Hot Money tidal waves in Asia and Latin America. Higher interest rates demolished property values, savaged industrial production and drained national treasuries.
You mean the result like water and electricity offered to certain areas of Latin America for the first time in history? The programs implemented to allow the poor to use these resources without having to pay a monthly bill (using instead a "pay as you go", phone-card type system that allows the poor to, say, cook a meal with an electric oven and then pay for no more electricity than they used.)

At this point, the IMF drags the gasping nation to Step Three: Market-Based Pricing, a fancy term for raising prices on food, water and cooking gas. This leads, predictably, to Step-Three-and-a-Half: what Stiglitz calls, “The IMF riot.”
And I'm sure that proof of these practices can be displayed, correct? Or do we take Stiglitz and his magical hidden documents for his word?

The IMF riot is painfully predictable. When a nation is, “down and out, [the IMF] takes advantage and squeezes the last pound of blood out of them. They turn up the heat until, finally, the whole cauldron blows up,” as when the IMF eliminated food and fuel subsidies for the poor in Indonesia in 1998. Indonesia exploded into riots, but there are other examples - the Bolivian riots over water prices last year and this February, the riots in Ecuador over the rise in cooking gas prices imposed by the World Bank. You’d almost get the impression that the riot is written into the plan.
They take advantage of them by pouring money into them! Those bastards!

And it is. What Stiglitz did not know is that, while in the States, BBC and The Observer obtained several documents from inside the World Bank, stamped over with those pesky warnings, “confidential,” “restricted,” “not to be disclosed.” Let’s get back to one: the “Interim Country Assistance Strategy” for Ecuador, in it the Bank several times states - with cold accuracy - that they expected their plans to spark, “social unrest,” to use their bureaucratic term for a nation in flames.
Again, references to documents that have not been produced and never will be produced...you will say it is because of the Jewish bankers, and I will say it is because these people are nuts and the documents do not exist.

That’s not surprising.
No, it isn't. I'm aware of how crazies work.


I'd like to go on with the article, but it is giving me an ulcer just to have to read it again....it continues on much in the same manner, with secret (so secret, they don't exist!) documents and banker conspiracies...

Is that good enough, AHZ?
 
This will be a breakdown of the article, so that AHZ shuts the fuck up.


First of all, a website named after the writer is probably credible as hell. This is a man whose own site bio describes him as challenging "the New Global Order", so I am sure what is basically his blog (despite some journalistic success in the UK and with leftists in America) is absolute truth.




How are they eye-popping? How did the IMF and US Treasury fix the Russian election (as in, through what means), and why? What interests were served?


How so, and why the narrative?
How is he brilliant? What makes him brilliant, and why the descriptive qualities? Is he a journalist or a fucking novelist?
What political ideology, and how has it gone rotten? What great information was he party to that he "debriefed" them (which implies that he briefed them beforehand).


I suppose there is some evidence of this?


You have links to these hours of exclusive interviews?


Narrative-blogger talk for "golden tablets you can't see".


Well, we should drop what we are doing and listen to one guy rather than look at what the IMF and World Bank do year after year to help developing countries.


Individually analysed! The bastards! How dare they come up with a plan on how to help an economically disadvantaged country!


Swiss bank accounts...now you are just appealing to the crazies that believe in James Bond.


Certainly you have evidence of this?


Here's a hint: if you have to deny it, you probably are.


Which consists of what? Clinton's economic advisors, which have even less sway on the economy than he did (minimal, at best.) I think someone needs to learn about the Federal Reserve and how money actually works.


Those damn US-backed oligarchs that are nameless and ominously referred to! The depression, by the way, was caused by the Russian Prohibition, which was even less successful (and shorter lived) than the US one.


Those damn capitalists coming in to provide jobs and an actual economy...we should just cut off all business with other countries and wait for our society to collapse in peace.


You mean the result like water and electricity offered to certain areas of Latin America for the first time in history? The programs implemented to allow the poor to use these resources without having to pay a monthly bill (using instead a "pay as you go", phone-card type system that allows the poor to, say, cook a meal with an electric oven and then pay for no more electricity than they used.)


And I'm sure that proof of these practices can be displayed, correct? Or do we take Stiglitz and his magical hidden documents for his word?


They take advantage of them by pouring money into them! Those bastards!


Again, references to documents that have not been produced and never will be produced...you will say it is because of the Jewish bankers, and I will say it is because these people are nuts and the documents do not exist.


No, it isn't. I'm aware of how crazies work.


I'd like to go on with the article, but it is giving me an ulcer just to have to read it again....it continues on much in the same manner, with secret (so secret, they don't exist!) documents and banker conspiracies...

Is that good enough, AHZ?

No. it's not. You've raised no valid criticism of the issues raised by a former IMF/ world bank insider. Your "questions" are insipid. you just deny everything you don't want to see. Just like you deny the existence of chinese laogai. This is how the world bank operates, and if you think it's fine and dandy, that's your own idiocy speaking.
 
Gonzo, since you obviously have trouble processing outside information, let's go back to your own ideas. How do you plan to convince people to be happy with their station in life? Torture? Shaming? Identity manipulation? Keeping them on the edge of starvation so they're too weak to consider such things?
 
Last edited:
Gonzo, since you obviously have trouble processing outside information, let's go back to your own ideas. How do you plan to convince people to be happy with their station in life? Torture? Shaming? Identity manipulation? Keeping them on the edge of starvation so they're too weak to consider such things?

People are not going to be happy with their station, regardless of wealth. This is a part of the human experience...you might be content, but there is always something new on the horizon that you want to incorporate into your life.

The goal is to eliminate envy (socially, at least), rather than unhappiness. I'm not talking about a Brave New World full of soma and orgies...rather, I'm advocating the government's role in showing the lower (and middle) class that the upper class is a necessity for a healthy economy...that these people should not be despised for their success, but a goal to strive for...that the lower class should direct its energy at self-improvement rather than loathing.

Again, you would accomplish that through methods (such as corporatism) that I discussed earlier in the thread, which you ignored (my guess is that you didn't feel like looking up the definitions).
 
People are not going to be happy with their station, regardless of wealth. This is a part of the human experience...you might be content, but there is always something new on the horizon that you want to incorporate into your life.

The goal is to eliminate envy (socially, at least), rather than unhappiness. I'm not talking about a Brave New World full of soma and orgies...rather, I'm advocating the government's role in showing the lower (and middle) class that the upper class is a necessity for a healthy economy...that these people should not be despised for their success, but a goal to strive for...that the lower class should direct its energy at self-improvement rather than loathing.

Again, you would accomplish that through methods (such as corporatism) that I discussed earlier in the thread, which you ignored (my guess is that you didn't feel like looking up the definitions).

The rich are not there exclusively by hard work, they're liars and cheats and there is a permanent upperclass that actively suppresses the rest of humanity by paying off congress to make money for their war profiteering. Nobody should respect counterfeiters just as nobody should respect the people who create money for their own fascistic causes and tell us it's the only way. Go read about the scam of fiat currency, then get a clue.


Self improvement? no matter how much you improve you can't compete with a slave or a country that is allowed to devalue it's currency. I used to think as you. The problem with how you think is that it's fucked in the head.

Nobody wants your elitist-worshipping brainwash. Sell it somewhere else.

So I repeat, how are going convince to people to believe in "the purity and rightness" of the ruling elite? You're a schmuck.
 
The rich are not there exclusively by hard work, they're liars and cheats
You mean like Bill Gates? Did he get rich by lying and cheating, or by selling a product despite not having completed his college degree?

and there is a permanent upperclass
If there is a permanent upper class, then why don't we see the relatives of Howard Hughes (one of the first billionaires) lording over us?

that actively suppresses the rest of humanity by paying off congress to make money for their war profiteering.
Please, tell me how the pay off Congress and what upper class you are referring to when you say "war profiteering"? Are you referring to the cereal corporations? Are you referring to Toshiba? Perhaps Philip Morris? What about Microsoft? Ah, you must mean the major publishing houses... Or could it be sugar manufacturers?
Nobody should respect counterfeiters
They aren't counterfeiters if they earn the money, only if they print it.

just as nobody should respect the people who create money for their own fascistic causes and tell us it's the only way.
How do they create money?

Go read about the scam of fiat currency, then get a clue.
How is fiat currency (which I'm sure you spend everyday, by the way) built on any more of a pretense than currency in general? To accept currency in the first place is to accept a lie, albeit a necessary one.


Self improvement? no matter how much you improve you can't compete with a slave or a country that is allowed to devalue it's currency.
Good thing they don't have to compete with slaves; they only have to actually show some work ethic in a world that is quickly losing exactly that.

I used to think as you.
That would be pre-motorcycle accident, right?

Nobody wants your elitist-worshipping brainwash. Sell it somewhere else.
No one is saying we should worship the rich--- only that to deny that class is inevitable is as ridiculous as the attempts to abolish it.

S
o I repeat, how are going convince to people to believe in "the purity and rightness" of the ruling elite? You're a schmuck.
And I repeat, I have answered you.
 
You mean like Bill Gates? Did he get rich by lying and cheating, or by selling a product despite not having completed his college degree?
He was brilliant, but he also had a family friend on the board of IBM. Don't you think getting paid per install was a bit of sweeheart deal? No. You don't think. DOS he bought from someone else for 50,000.
If there is a permanent upper class, then why don't we see the relatives of Howard Hughes (one of the first billionaires) lording over us?
They stay under the radar. Plus, hughes was too much of a maverick and nonconformist. So they tried to destroy him.
Please, tell me how the pay off Congress and what upper class you are referring to when you say "war profiteering"?
Giving them positive press, campaign money, and secret payola is how they pay them off. They create them in the fist place actually. And they are the controllers of companies like GE, Halliburton, Big Oil, Big pharma, and the media mostly. And the Banking Industry which gets to practice fractional reserve lending with every dollar they receive. Do you know what fractional reserve lending is?
They aren't counterfeiters if they earn the money, only if they print it.
They create the very careers of the politicians who then put the military spending into the federal budget and create the laws which regulate drugs in their favor, or outlaw drilling in anwar to keep the oil price up. Think it through, big boy, you can do it.
How do they create money?
They put the spending in the budget, and the federal reserve creates it based on the budget.
How is fiat currency (which I'm sure you spend everyday, by the way) built on any more of a pretense than currency in general? To accept currency in the first place is to accept a lie, albeit a necessary one.
NON fiat currency is always worth silver or gold, something legitimately rare and valuable. Fiat currency's value is only based on the government's power to ENFORCE it as legal tender. It has many negative effects, from rampant inflation to a severe amplification of statist power within the society.
Good thing they don't have to compete with slaves; they only have to actually show some work ethic in a world that is quickly losing exactly that.
They do though. They forced to compete with slaves abroad and and a glut of immigrants flowing in, due to the corporations also using their politician puppets to make sure immigration laws arent' enforced, and that there are special visas for the specific profession they FEEL are making too much money. They don't respect markets, They create and modify markets to suit themselves.
No one is saying we should worship the rich--- only that to deny that class is inevitable is as ridiculous as the attempts to abolish it.

S
And I repeat, I have answered you.

you're saying people should look up to the rich. Im saying that unconditional adoration is unwarranted. They are fuckers and they're obsessed with a population control agenda, which is why they're such fuckers.

You haven't answered anything; you've merely displayed your own ignorance.
 
Last edited:
Ass, you dirty fascist!

Eat Me!
slimjim.gif
 
He was brilliant, but he also had a family friend on the board of IBM. Don't you think getting paid per install was a bit of sweeheart deal? No. You don't think. DOS he bought from someone else for 50,000.
Networking is how you get somewhere in life...to me it sounds as if you are simply angry that you haven't been successful.

They stay under the radar. Plus, hughes was too much of a maverick and nonconformist. So they tried to destroy him.
Hughes destroyed himself-- plus, staying under the radar flies in the face of this image of the rich that you have, as if they step over peasants in the streets with their noses turned to the air...most of the charities in this country are supported by the extremely wealthy. Gates alone has given what, like 30 billion to charity?

Giving them positive press, campaign money, and secret payola is how they pay them off.
That is the nature of politics...if you disagree, don't vote for them, and don't use the products/services that support them...you have a choice.

They create them in the fist place actually. And they are the controllers of companies like GE, Halliburton, Big Oil, Big pharma, and the media mostly.
Ah yes, now we are back to those damn oil companies, while ignoring that the vast majority of corporations have little or nothing to do with "war profiteering" or whatever other conspiracies you pull out of your ass.



They create the very careers of the politicians who then put the military spending into the federal budget and create the laws which regulate drugs in their favor, or outlaw drilling in anwar to keep the oil price up. Think it through, big boy, you can do it.
Think like a person without a tinfoil hat, you can do it.



NON fiat currency is always worth silver or gold, something legitimately rare and valuable. Fiat currency's value is only based on the government's power to ENFORCE it as legal tender. It has many negative effects, from rampant inflation to a severe amplification of statist power within the society.
Lol. And what makes the value of gold or silver legitimate? Because you say so? Good God man, that is exactly what I said-- currency in any form is based on a pretense...the fact that you are arguing against cloth in favour of rocks is astounding to me.

They do though. They forced to compete with slaves abroad
No, they don't. We have already been over this...first of all, Americans aren't willing to do most of the jobs that workers in other countries will do, and secondly those workers are not slaves. Wake the fuck up.

and and a glut of immigrants flowing in, due to the corporations also using their politician puppets to make sure immigration laws arent' enforced, and that there are special visas for the specific profession they FEEL are making too much money. They don't respect markets, They create and modify markets to suit themselves.
No, your precious liberal government has done that. Government subsidies create the sort of market that drives immigrants out of jobs and forces them to emigrate in the first place...while I still see illegal immigrants as a problem to be solved (and laws are part of that), the government certainly has a hand in it, and it has nothing to do with corporations.


you're saying people should look up to the rich. Im saying that unconditional adoration is unwarranted. They are fuckers and they're obsessed with a population control agenda, which is why they're such fuckers.
I'm saying that people should look after their own success and not worry about the success of others...you and the other class warriors instill this hostility in the common man that is neither constructive nor accurate.
 
Networking is how you get somewhere in life...to me it sounds as if you are simply angry that you haven't been successful.
Networking? That's a sweetheart deal for a family friend.
Hughes destroyed himself-- plus, staying under the radar flies in the face of this image of the rich that you have, as if they step over peasants in the streets with their noses turned to the air...most of the charities in this country are supported by the extremely wealthy. Gates alone has given what, like 30 billion to charity?
This isn't about hughes. they do mostly stay under the radar. Charitable giving is just a bandaid over the sickness of our eltiist society.

That is the nature of politics...if you disagree, don't vote for them, and don't use the products/services that support them...you have a choice.
You were asking how they put them in office. They give them money and media spin, and keep legitimate candidates for the people marginalized. The choice is between two puppets who basically have the same policies on issues that actually matter.
Ah yes, now we are back to those damn oil companies, while ignoring that the vast majority of corporations have little or nothing to do with "war profiteering" or whatever other conspiracies you pull out of your ass.
No. we're back to how corporate interests pass policy to keep their businesses healthy, such as disallowing drilling in anwar to keep the oil price high.
Think like a person without a tinfoil hat, you can do it.
So is it you assertion there's no corporate influence in politics or what? that's just ignorant and pollyannaish.
Lol. And what makes the value of gold or silver legitimate? Because you say so? Good God man, that is exactly what I said-- currency in any form is based on a pretense...the fact that you are arguing against cloth in favour of rocks is astounding to me.
It's based on actual scarcity and difficulty in acquisition. Unlike fiat currency which is based on force of government. You're just taliking stupid now.
No, they don't. We have already been over this...first of all, Americans aren't willing to do most of the jobs that workers in other countries will do, and secondly those workers are not slaves. Wake the fuck up.
Yes they do. They do compete with slaves. Or are you denying what goes on in china again? And too much immigration suppresses wages. So much of your worldview is based on denying reality. Get smart, paco.
No, your precious liberal government has done that. Government subsidies create the sort of market that drives immigrants out of jobs and forces them to emigrate in the first place...while I still see illegal immigrants as a problem to be solved (and laws are part of that), the government certainly has a hand in it, and it has nothing to do with corporations.
You're moronic. Corporations want the cheap labor.
I'm saying that people should look after their own success and not worry about the success of others...you and the other class warriors instill this hostility in the common man that is neither constructive nor accurate.
In an interdependant world economy, much of our personal success is out of our hands. We cannot protect ourselves against china when it is allowed to dominate production with a devalued currency. Or when they use slave labor.


So I guess the very nature of our currency system is another thing you must ignore to keep pimping your fascist elitism with a good conscience.

You're a trainwreck, intellectually.

So far you've had to deny wage slavery overseas, how the World Bank works, how our currency system works, and the influence of corporations in our political system to maintain your ignorant views.
 
Last edited:
And gonzo, your continued obvious ignorance/denial of vast swaths of reality will not inspire the adoration of the rich you seek to inculcate in the minds of the "lowly"; yet my spotlight of truth on the slimy underpinnings of our system will inspire the revolutionary zeal required for actual change. Just so you know.
 
Last edited:
Networking? That's a sweetheart deal for a family friend.
Tomato, ToMAHto.

This isn't about hughes. they do mostly stay under the radar. Charitable giving is just a bandaid over the sickness of our eltiist society.
But of course it is...I'm sure any number of positive aspects of the wealthy are "just a bandaid", because you hate the rich despite any evidence. I wonder who makes "Band-Aid" brand bandages, by the way?


You were asking how they put them in office. They give them money and media spin, and keep legitimate candidates for the people marginalized. The choice is between two puppets who basically have the same policies on issues that actually matter.
I agree that modern politics give little to decide between...hence the new political philosophy and the drive to bring about drastic change.

No. we're back to how corporate interests pass policy to keep their businesses healthy, such as disallowing drilling in anwar to keep the oil price high.
You are still ignoring the fact that without corporations our economy would collapse...not to mention that the environmentalists are what prevents the drilling in ANWAR, not the oil companies (by the way, once again I would like to point out to you that there are tons of corporations that aren't oil companies or defense contractors.

So is it you assertion there's no corporate influence in politics or what? that's just ignorant and pollyannaish.
You really love the word "pollyannaish". I'm saying I don't see corporate influence in politics as evil; at least no more evil than special interest groups have influence in politics.

It's based on actual scarcity and difficulty in acquisition. Unlike fiat currency which is based on force of government. You're just taliking stupid now.
Dude, they are FUCKING ROCKS. There is no difference between a belief that fiat is worth something and that gold is worth something-- both don't actually contain any value beyond what we give them. That is why currency in general is based on the pretense of value, and you just have to accept it.

Yes they do. They do compete with slaves. Or are you denying what goes on in china again? And too much immigration suppresses wages. So much of your worldview is based on denying reality. Get smart, paco.
What sort of wages do the immigrants suppress? Have you tried to be a strawberry picker these days or something, because otherwise I doubt your wages or any wages of people you know have been affected. And once again, they aren't slaves. Much of your worldview is based on conspiracy bullshit.

You're moronic. Corporations want the cheap labor.
And third world workers want jobs, but that has nothing to do with subsidies..stop changing the subject.

In an interdependant world economy, much of our personal success is out of our hands. We cannot protect ourselves against china when it is allowed to dominate production with a devalued currency. Or when they use slave labor.
Lol. Protect ourselves from China, as if China's sole purpose is to be our bogeyman.


So I guess the very nature of our currency system is another thing you must ignore to keep pimping your fascist elitism with a good conscience.
Yawn. Back to this? You really have no idea what you are talking about.

You're a trainwreck, intellectually.

So far you've had to deny wage slavery overseas, how the World Bank works, how our currency system works, and the influence of corporations in our political system to maintain your ignorant views.
So far you have twisted or lied about just about any aspect of this conversation, ignored my responses when you were unable to respond (but then accused me of not answering), and generally shown yourself to be some sort of anarchist crazy.
 
Gonzo. You have no credible arguments. You just ignore everything you don't want to see. Arguing with you is a waste of time.

What have I lied about? just for funzies let's see if you can come up with something.
 
Back
Top