THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ANY GODS EXIST...

rjhenn said:
Of course, the fact that "One cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate 'At least one god exists.'" and that there's no evidence for the existence of any gods is itself a logical argument that no gods exist.
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Nope. Not in any way.

Consider this question:

FACT: There is no evidence of the existence of any sentient life on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol.

Is that "a logical argument" that no sentient life exists on any of those planets...

...or is it "a logical argument" that we do not know if any sentient life exists on any of those planets?
 
Frank Apisa said:
Nope. Not in any way.

Consider this question:

FACT: There is no evidence of the existence of any sentient life on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol.

Is that "a logical argument" that no sentient life exists on any of those planets...

...or is it "a logical argument" that we do not know if any sentient life exists on any of those planets?
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Why do you care what others believe? I've said it before, I couldn't care less what you believe, or don't believe. Why argue about it?
 
I am delighted this conversation has taken a turn in the direction I was hoping it would go from the beginning.

So that this does not get lost here...allow me to restate in other words a thought...an assertion...I expressed at the start.

I assert that one cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate (verify, authenticate, confirm, prove) either of these assertions:

"There is at least one god"...or..."there are no gods."

Likewise, one cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate (verify, authenticate, confirm, prove) either of these assertions:

"It is more likely that at least one god exists...than that no gods exist"...or..."It is more likely that no gods exist...than that at least one god exists."

There is no way I can see any of those things being done via logic, reason, science, or math; they seem to be merely blind guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

Now...if anyone can actually do it (in either direction)...I'd love to see it. I would LOVE to be wrong in my assertion...which, I acknowledge I cannot prove. It is, in effect, a guess I am making.

But if anyone can actually do it...I am willing to be proven wrong.
 
RB 60 said:
Why do you care what others believe? I've said it before, I couldn't care less what you believe, or don't believe. Why argue about it?
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I'll discuss that with you, but first a question:

Why are you supposing that what you find uninteresting...others must also find uninteresting?
 
rjhenn said:
Of course, that's not what he's saying at all.


He seems to have a better understanding than you do.
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Rjhenn...I have PP on IGNORE...and I never peek...so I am at a loss here except for your posts.

I would like to say that "I do not know" is not "faith."

I do not know if any sentient beings exist on any planet circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol.

I SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.

It is a clear, logical, reasonable statement about the condition: Do any sentient beings exist on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol?
 
The Ugly Truth said:
reason: Verb
To think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

Logic and reason support the belief in God. You can try to argue that God doesn't exist. It just can't be done. The simple fact is that we exist. The universe exists. It is a universe of laws and order. If this, then that...It is the basis of all scientific understanding. There is evidence for the existence of God. It's right there. Look at it. It stands up to any amount of reason or logic. God reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him. If you haven't found Him, then you aren't looking hard enough.
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That whole argument is just the result of a need to anthropomorphise the universe.
 
rjhenn said:
That whole argument is just the result of a need to anthropomorphise the universe.
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His "argument" is not truly an argument...it is wishful thinking.

That "God reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him. If you haven't found Him, then you aren't looking hard enough" is so illogical, it barely stays below "laughable."

If there is the kind of "god" Ugly is talking about...that wants to "reveal" itself...one would not have to "seek or look hard" for it. The god supposedly made the 200+ billion stars in our galaxy...and the 300+billion other galaxies we know of...spread them all out over space so large it take light billions of years to traverse it.

If it wanted to reveal itself...it would do it easy as picking a daisy is for a human.

Anyway...I hope we can limit this discussion to questions of "gods" rather than one particular weird god that seems to be a product of superstitious ancient peoples.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I'll discuss that with you, but first a question:

Why are you supposing that what you find uninteresting...others must also find uninteresting?
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Simply because my personal beliefs are...personal. It's extremely rare that I participate in discussions on religion, yet I see so many criticizing those of us who believe what we do. I see posters on this very forum grouping all believers as one, even if only one of them is a hypocrite. I don't consider all atheists evil, but they do seem far more critically outspoken than believers.
 
RB 60 said:
Simply because my personal beliefs are...personal. It's extremely rare that I participate in discussions on religion, yet I see so many criticizing those of us who believe what we do. I see posters on this very forum grouping all believers as one, even if only one of them is a hypocrite. I don't consider all atheists evil, but they do seem far more critically outspoken than believers.
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Okay...but I don't think that actually answers my question...which was: Why are you supposing that what you find uninteresting...others must also find uninteresting?

Allow me to comment on one aspect of what you did say, however.

You said, "...my personal beliefs are...personal. It's extremely rare that I participate in discussions on religion, yet I see so many criticizing those of us who believe what we do."

When you use the word "beliefs" here...(as regard to the subject at hand: "The question of whether any gods exist"...

...is it POSSIBLE that you are merely making a guess about something unknown...and then calling that "guess" a "belief" for convenience?

I suspect that is exactly what is happening. I suspect whenever ANYONE says, "I believe there is a GOD" or "I believe there are no gods"...what they are actually saying is, "It is my guess there is a GOD" or "It is my guess there are no gods."

I do not see any way for it to be anything but a guess.

The reason for the change in wording...seems self-apparent.

Let's discuss that. What do you think about that, RB?
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Without you presenting your supposed "information", your comments just turn out to be you verbally masterbating. :good4u:
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You seem to be determined to demonstrate that you're an idiot with absolutely nothing to contribute. So, I think I'll follow OW's example and toss you on the garbage heap of my ignore list.
 
rjhenn said:
Your personal faith is quite blind. If God exists, and really cared whether or not we believed in Him, it would certainly be within His power to demonstrate His existence to all of us. That He doesn't do so means one of two things. Either He doesn't exist, or we mean nothing to Him. .
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it is not limited to two things.......obviously the third might be the one explained in scripture.......that he seeks those that choose him by faith and not by proof.......

In either case, your faith is based on what you want to believe, not on any reality
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again is this merely a "reality" of your imagination?.....
 
rjhenn said:
The universe is not "dying". It will continue to exist forever, as near as we can tell. It may even, at some point, collapse to a singularity again and start the whole process over again. Your faith is based on a human creation.
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???....and is your speculation regarding the future of the universe not a human creation.......
 
rjhenn said:
Typical refusing to believe what the Bible says so that you can believe what you want to believe.
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sorry, can you be specific of this thing you claim I refuse to believe that the Bible says?......because from here it looks like you have no idea what you are talking about.....
 
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