What defines a Christian?

kudzu said:
There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.
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????....there isn't?......how about the text of Isaiah 53?.......is any of this true about the Jewish people?.....
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
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kudzu said:
Good link, guno.


But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend. [Isaiah 41:8]

Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. [Isaiah 44:21]

For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me. [Isaiah 45:4]

And He said to me, 'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.' [Isaiah 49:3]

And see also Isaiah 43:10; 44:1; 48:20, 49:7
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not a single reference to a suffering servant, you see.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
yes it was......perhaps you have overlooked that minor detail of his crucifixion......
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In Hebrew the meaning of the word messiah means an anointed king or priest.. fully human .. and there were several to include Cyrus.

Isaiah was written in celebration of the end of the Babylonian exile. The messiah was going to rebuild the Temple and unify and restore the 12 tribes.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
if you think so its obvious you've had no training...
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Yes, I have but I am an educated Episcopalian and a preterist because I love the history and archaeology of the region having visited it several times. My grandparents were true fundamentalists and very religious so I spent alot of time in their church. But, you know by the time you are 8 or 10 you know that the Noah story and the story of Jonah are fables.. I think either you write it all off as bullshit or you look for some deeper meaning and the reasons why the stories have survived. Personally I have come to the conclusion that they are very important, but not as science or history.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
as an adjective it means annointed......as a noun it means The Annointed One....the Chosen One of God....
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Messiah/messiah.html
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No.. check your sources.. Messiah is an anointed king or priest.. Christians rewrote the meaning and borrowed from Old Testament prophesies as if they needed to vet Jesus.. There are many differences between the Torah and the Old Testament.

As monotheism has evolved I think it shameful that men like you have to say "the Jews got it wrong" to defend your beliefs.

The Jewish messiah spoken of after the Babylonian Exile was supposed to rebuild the temple and reunite the 12 tribes...
 
kudzu said:
Yes, I have but I am an educated Episcopalian and a preterist because I love the history and archaeology of the region having visited it several times. My grandparents were true fundamentalists and very religious so I spent alot of time in their church. But, you know by the time you are 8 or 10 you know that the Noah story and the story of Jonah are fables.. I think either you write it all off as bullshit or you look for some deeper meaning and the reasons why the stories have survived. Personally I have come to the conclusion that they are very important, but not as science or history.
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great....but you are still 100% wrong....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
????....there isn't?......how about the text of Isaiah 53?.......is any of this true about the Jewish people?.....
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Amazing that the goy who had no knowledge of hebrew know anything about jewish scripture and knows what it says,

the ignorant goy only know what they are taught

The Context of Isaiah 53
The key to deciphering any biblical text is to view it in context. Isaiah 53 is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.” (The others are found in Isaiah chapters 42, 49 and 50.) Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified – these verses merely refer to “My servant” (52:13, 53:11) – the “servant” in each of the previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation. Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:

“You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
“You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20
The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.


One obvious question that needs to be addressed: How can the “Suffering Servant,” which the verses refer to grammatically in the singular, be equated with the entire Jewish nation?

The Jewish people are consistently referred to with the singular pronoun.
This question evaporates when we discover that throughout the Bible, the Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity, using the singular pronoun. For example, when God speaks to the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, all of the Ten Commandments are written as if speaking to an individual (Exodus 20:1-14). This is because the Jewish people are one unit, bound together with a shared national destiny (see Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy chapter 32). This singular reference is even more common in biblical verses referring to the Messianic era, when the Jewish people will be fully united under the banner of God (see Hosea 14:6-7, Jeremiah 50:19).

As we will see, for numerous reasons this chapter cannot be referring to Jesus. Even in the Christian scriptures, the disciples did not consider the Suffering Servant as referring to Jesus (see Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45).


http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html
 
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kudzu said:
No.. I am not wrong.. You are just old and defensive..and sadly you turn a lot of people away from faith by demanding they believe in the supernatural.
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well Lord knows them educated Episcopalians aren't into anything supernatural..........you are wrong.....you will just have to deal with it.....
 
guno said:
There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.
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yes there is.....it is speaking about an individual and while it is true that "The Jewish people are consistently referred to with the singular pronoun" that pronoun is "you" not "he"......

As we will see, for numerous reasons this chapter cannot be referring to Jesus.
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really?.....any of this sound familiar?......
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
Click to expand...

can you give me an example of such things being said about the nation of Israel?....

After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Click to expand...
 
I don't know what this man's religion is, or if he has one. I would say, though, that if he is Christian he exemplifies Jesus's teachings.

"As for the Waffle House hero, James Shaw Jr., he immediately took action following the shooting starting a GoFundMe page with an initial ending goal of $15,000 but ended up receiving more than eleven times that amount after the story became national news and raised over $165K.

Now, Shaw is using the donations funds to pay for the funerals of all four victims; DeEbony Groves, Akilah DaSilva, Joe R. Perez, and Taurean C. Sanderlin. This is what Shaw had to say about his use of the GoFundMe monies, "There are four families that are grieving right now. So much life was lost for no reason. I feel like it could be very selfish of me if I didn't point it out. And I apologize."

Shaw also spoke on his heroics stating the following, “I did that completely out of a selfish act. I was completely doing it just to save myself. I don't want people to think that I was the Terminator or Superman or anybody like that.""

https://www.vladtv.com/article/2443...s-shaw-jr-to-pay-for-funeral-costs-of-victims
 
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