What is hell?

Into the Night said:
Not knowing God does not mean you will be punished for it.
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Explain what you mean. What do you mean "not knowing God"?

Are you suggesting that in some form of Christianity that those who have never heard about God will not be sent to hell? That's a theologically acceptable position. Not necessarily one that all Christians follow, I should think. But a very good one.

The only problem is: once you've heard 'The Good News' if you don't then believe in God manifesting himself as a human and appearing to a completely unimportant small group of people wedged into a far flung corner of the Roman empire, and then arranging for the humans to murder him in a form of ritual sacrifice so that mankind would be atoned to himself, you are well and truly screwed.

Thankfully it's an easy thing to believe.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
One would have to believe in some sort of soul or spirit that exists
in some mysterious realm apart from physical matter.
I have never seen anything approaching a reason to believe that.
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I used to think that - nothing exists but physical matter. Until I realized that's not true.

Mathematics, the laws of physics, logic, the universal physical constants all exist outside of material substance.
Some people might even say love, mercy, justice, free will, conscience exists outside of the material realm, unless we decide to believe humans are nothing but automatons reacting to strictly biochemical reactions.
 
Cypress said:
I used to think that - nothing exists but physical matter. Until I realized that's not true.

Mathematics, the laws of physics, logic, the universal physical constants all exist outside of material substance.
Some people might even say love, mercy, justice, free will, conscience exists outside of the material realm, unless we decide to believe humans are nothing but automatons reacting to strictly biochemical reactions.
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It's not a matter of deciding to believe something, C.
It's rather a matter of what we can make out from what we observe.
It's a matter of how our individual minds interpret the evidence.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
It's not a matter of deciding to believe something, C.
It's rather a matter of what we can make out from what we observe.
It's a matter of how our individual minds interpret the evidence.
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Right, for me the universal law of gravity, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the pythagorean theorem, the logical principle of cause and effect, and other axions are real even though they have no material substance.

I'd hate to think my love for my wife is nothing more than a biochemical reaction between electrons, or that my free will does not exist. That's why love and free will to me feel real even though they have no material substance.
 
Cypress said:
I'd hate to think my love for my wife is nothing more than a biochemical reaction between electrons, or that my free will does not exist.
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That's just it.
There's a whole lot of reality going on right now,
and while nobody hates to acknowledge it all more than I,
I'm perceiving that it's all unfortunately true.

I try not to let what I want to believe color my observations.

That said, I also believe that people can draw very honest conclusions that differ from mine.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
That's just it.
There's a whole lot of reality going on right now,
and while nobody hates to acknowledge it all more than I,
I'm perceiving that it's all unfortunately true.

I try not to let what I want to believe color my observations.

That said, I also believe that people can draw very honest conclusions that differ from mine.
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Okay, I'm not sure you can actually live strict reductionist physical materialism out to it's logical conclusion in real life, but that's just my opinion.

I've met very few people willing to tell their mother that their love for her is nothing more but chemical reactions between electrons they have no control over.
 
Daylight63 said:
LOL.

And now you are at your limit of exegesis. You can't defend your concept of God because you haven't even thought it through. You just belieeeeeeeeeeeeve and that's cool. God will protect you from.......God's punishment if you don't believe.
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The only one not thinking is you. You don't want anything to do with God. That's your choice. You will get exactly what that choice provides for you, separation from God. In other words hell and you're STILL not fucking happy. You want to do whatever the fuck you want and not have to deal with any consequences. Yeah well God is like that person you across in life who will always hold you responsible for your actions. Stop pissing and moaning
 
Yakuda said:
The only one not thinking is you. You don't want anything to do with God. That's your choice. You will get exactly what that choice provides for you, separation from God. In other words hell and you're STILL not fucking happy. You want to do whatever the fuck you want and not have to deal with any consequences. Yeah well God is like that person you across in life who will always hold you responsible for your actions. Stop pissing and moaning
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LOL.
 
Cypress said:
I'd hate to think my love for my wife is nothing more than a biochemical reaction between electrons,
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You are not unlike most Creationists. You feel that science somehow "robs" you of the romance of life.

Nothing could be further from the truth for those of us who actually have more association with science.

Cypress said:
or that my free will does not exist.
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I'll admit this is a troubling one. It's easier when you remember we are all just animals and a LOT of animals function primarily on instinctive actions....humans can and DO have those same factors in their brains. Don't sweat it....it's not quite as harsh as strict determinism. There is a spectrum.
 
Daylight63 said:
You are not unlike most Creationists. You feel that science somehow "robs" you of the romance of life.
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Science is an important, but narrow and limited form of knowledge.

In your life, there are no scientific experiments or equations that will guide you on relationships, on trust, loyalty, love, mercy, on creativity, or marriage.

There is no scientific equation that will determine if you like vanilla or chocolate, prefer Tolstoy or Dan Brown, or are partial to Mozart or Led Zeppelin.

Your mother cannot scientifically prove her love for you.

You won't find the answers to love or loss in the bottom of a test tube.

The overwhelming, vast majority of your life has nothing to do with science.
The people who are most aware of the limitations of science are frequently those who really understand and are trained in science.

It's usually laypersons who mistakenly put science on an idealized pedestal.
 
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Cypress said:
Science is an important, but narrow and limited form of knowledge.
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No, science is a means of gaining knowledge and testing it for validity.

Cypress said:
In your life, there are no scientific experiments or equations that will guide you on relationships, on trust, loyalty, love, mercy, on creativity, or marriage.
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This is one of the most mysterious points of yours. I'm sure in your imagination it has intense and deep meaning. I wish you luck in some day being able to express it.

Cypress said:
There is no scientific equation that will determine if you like vanilla or chocolate,
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You are probably wrong there. It's probably encoded in genetic materials.

Cypress said:
prefer Tolstoy or Dan Brown, or are partial to Mozart or Led Zeppelin.
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Again, you are probably wrong. It is probably encoded in both the physical aspects of the neuron network that makes up my brain as well as genetic factors.

Cypress said:
Your mother cannot scientifically prove her love for you.
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Yes she can.

Cypress said:
You won't find the answers to love or loss in the bottom of a test tube.
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You sure don't like science much, do you?

Cypress said:
The overwhelming, vast majority of your life has nothing to do with science.
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You'd be wrong there as well. But you are so often wrong you are at least consistent.

Cypress said:
The people who are most aware of the limitations of science are frequently those who really understand and are trained in science.
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Yeah, you could use more scientific training.

 
Yakuda said:
You should laugh. I do. You people get exactly what you want and you're still not happy. Its amazing.
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It must be a true blessing to have a faith you don't ever bother to think about. It's the faith of a child. And that's how you are supposed to approach it. Like a child. Unquestioning and just accepting because someone told you to.

Enjoy your faith. It is a blessing for you not to have to bother thinking too much.
 
Daylight63 said:
Hell is a wonderful invention of the early Christians leveraging the Greek concepts of an afterlife complete with punishment/rewards. It didn't really exist in Judeo-Christianity before, and arguably the terms "Gehenna" and other descriptions of the "outer darkness" are a reference to the grave.

Hell is a wonderful invention in that it solves the need to provide any reason to actively believe in God and replaces it with the threat of eternal torment if you fail to believe in the proper way.

This really makes it much easier on God since He is under no requirement to provide any proof of his existence, but if you get it wrong He gets to punish you forever and ever and ever. And it's 1000X easier on the Believers because all they need to do is threaten people with this rather than living according to their own morality or attempting to bring someone into the faith willingly.

Atheists will learn the lesson. Yes they will.
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there's no such thing as judeo-christianity.
 
Daylight63 said:
No, science is a means of gaining knowledge and testing it for validity.



This is one of the most mysterious points of yours. I'm sure in your imagination it has intense and deep meaning. I wish you luck in some day being able to express it.



You are probably wrong there. It's probably encoded in genetic materials.



Again, you are probably wrong. It is probably encoded in both the physical aspects of the neuron network that makes up my brain as well as genetic factors.



Yes she can.



You sure don't like science much, do you?



You'd be wrong there as well. But you are so often wrong you are at least consistent.



Yeah, you could use more scientific training.
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You're lying to yourself if you believe science is the panacea to all knowledge and wisdom.

You've made science an object of worship. That is very misguided and naive.

You do not need to know anything about quarks, differential equations, or neutron stars to be a fully functioning intelligent human being capable of cultivating knowledge and wisdom.
 
Daylight63 said:
It must be a true blessing to have a faith you don't ever bother to think about. It's the faith of a child. And that's how you are supposed to approach it. Like a child. Unquestioning and just accepting because someone told you to.

Enjoy your faith. It is a blessing for you not to have to bother thinking too much.
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You have no idea how I've come about my faith but your pomposity is hilarious.

You think you know everything and worse that they you think you're right. You trat God like you rest everything else in.life for your own desires and satisfaction.

If it's true that I don't have to bother thinking then it's true that you're too afraid to think. You can't stand the reality that you will one day be held to account for your choices. Nothing is more childish than thinking you should able to do whatever you like and not be held accountable for it.
 
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