What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad

The original draft was never published, the Congress altered the document before requesting a final draft to send to the king, and only the final draft was published. This is very likely due to the portion of it on slavery.
 
Damocles said:
It was a culmination of a lifetime of belief. It was part of what made Jefferson. There was a constant argument among those who knew him and in the papers of the time that talked about whether or not he was a Christian. It is ridiculous to ignore history and say that "that was after he lost his faith". It was part of what he was and is a large portion of what he used to define himself.
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When he wrote the DOI he was a Christian. He could have become a Muslim after that and it would not change a thing.
 
Southern Man said:
When he wrote the DOI he was a Christian. He could have become a Muslim after that and it would not change a thing.
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I don't believe that he was. When he wrote the DOI he didn't attend a church and spoke on the fact that if there was a Unitarian church nearby he would attend that one.

I think you are projecting your own belief onto somebody else because you want the founders to be what you are.
 
Damocles said:
I don't believe that he was. When he wrote the DOI he didn't attend a church and spoke on the fact that if there was a Unitarian church nearby he would attend that one.

I think you are projecting your own belief onto somebody else because you want the founders to be what you are.
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I believe that he was. Assuming that you are correct on his beliefs at that time in history:

Unitarian Christians believe in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as found in the New Testament and other early Christian writings, and hold him up as an exemplar.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Therefore he was a Christian and was influenced by the teachings of Jesus.
 
Southern Man said:
I believe that he was. Assuming that you are correct on his beliefs at that time in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Therefore he was a Christian and was influenced by the teachings of Jesus.
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However, "Unitarian Christians" are not the only Unitarians. You do know the church accepts all Faiths as valid, right? There was a reason he did not want to go to Christian Churches. Again, this is a desperate attempt to rewrite history. The man was not a Christian, get over it. He was a Deist, self-described as such. He did not believe in the Deity of Christ. It does not matter that he wrote his own New Testament later, it was based on his beliefs, that he held when he wrote the DOI.

Believing that we are Created Equal does not make one a Christian, especially one who specifically describes himself as something else.

He did say he was "more Christian" than Christians. Of course, I have stated the same and I am a Buddhist. I follow the precepts of the religion better than most Christians that I meet, that is what I and he meant by that, not that he believed more in Christ's Divinity than they did, and it was AFTER he wrote his own New Testament that he made that remark.

Also being "influenced by" the teachings of Christ doesn't make you a Christian either. Many people, Muslims included, believe that he was a Great Man (Muslims believe he was a prophet, but not "The Prophet".) Often Buddhists believe that he was a Bodhisattva. This doesn't make the Buddhist a Christian, nor does it make them believe in the Divinity of what they believe to be a man and a teacher.

It is weak to try to proscribe a religion to a man who stated that he was something else.
 
Hmm the evangelical church i was raised in told me that unitarians were not christians and would burn in hell. also that the methodists would also go to hell for drinking and the catholics for bingo and idolitry, etc....
very entertaining once you get out from under religions thumb.

of course this was the church of jerry falwell, jim baker and ted haggard :D

But they were the only way to heaven per them, and a christian would not lie to an impressionable child now would they ?
 
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Damocles said:
However, "Unitarian Christians" are not the only Unitarians. You do know the church accepts all Faiths as valid, right? There was a reason he did not want to go to Christian Churches. Again, this is a desperate attempt to rewrite history. The man was not a Christian, get over it. He was a Deist, self-described as such. He did not believe in the Deity of Christ. It does not matter that he wrote his own New Testament later, it was based on his beliefs, that he held when he wrote the DOI.

Believing that we are Created Equal does not make one a Christian, especially one who specifically describes himself as something else.

He did say he was "more Christian" than Christians. Of course, I have stated the same and I am a Buddhist. I follow the precepts of the religion better than most Christians that I meet, that is what I and he meant by that, not that he believed more in Christ's Divinity than they did, and it was AFTER he wrote his own New Testament that he made that remark.

Also being "influenced by" the teachings of Christ doesn't make you a Christian either. Many people, Muslims included, believe that he was a Great Man (Muslims believe he was a prophet, but not "The Prophet".) Often Buddhists believe that he was a Bodhisattva. This doesn't make the Buddhist a Christian, nor does it make them believe in the Divinity of what they believe to be a man and a teacher.

It is weak to try to proscribe a religion to a man who stated that he was something else.
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From the Unitarians today: http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html
These facts about Jefferson's religion are known. He was raised as an Anglican and always maintained some affiliation with the Anglican Church. He was also known to contribute financially, in fair proportion, to every denomination in his town. While a student at William and Mary College, he began to read the Scottish moral philosophers and other authors who had made themselves students of church history. These scholars opened the door for Jefferson's informed criticism of prevailing religious institutions and beliefs. But it was the world renowned English Unitarian minister and scientist, Joseph Priestley, who had the most profound impact on his thought. According to Priestley's Corruptions of Christianity, published in 1782, and many other of his books, the teachings of Jesus and his human character were obscured and obfuscated in the early Christian centuries. As the Church Fathers adapted Christianity to Mediterranean-primarily Greek-forms of thought, they contrived doctrines altogether foreign to Biblical thought, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. Jefferson assumed that a thoroughly reformed Christian faith, true to Jesus' teaching, would be purged of all Greek influence and doctrinal absurdity.

Jefferson never joined a Unitarian church...
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To me this looks like a well studied Christian.
 
AssHatZombie said:
The Nicene creed is considered to be the definitive statement of christianity, if you don't believe in that, you're not a christian, if the labels actually matter. They do matter in this context because we're deciding how to label jefferson's beliefs.
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That creed is Catholic.
 
Southern Man said:
From the Unitarians today: http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html


To me this looks like a well studied Christian.
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What? I said he professed a wish to join one, I didn't say he had. And again, Unitarians also believe that all other Faiths are equally valid. One can be a Kabbalist or Buddhist, for instance, and feel comfortable in their church. One does not need to have a belief in the divinity of Christ to join a Unitarian Church.

Tell me that a person who says that they are a Deist and not a Christian, writes a "gospel" that denies the Divinity of Christ, is a Christian. Then I will tell you that you are just wishing for fishes rather than casting a net.
 
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