When Does Life End?

Beefy said:
Agreed. People can argue all kinds of shit, like when life is valuable or when it is viable, but at conception, you have a living human at its earliest state. It all semantics otherwise.

Its silly to say shit like "ITS NOT ALIVE BECUZZ IT CANT BREATHE ON ITS OWN!!!", or "IT DOESNT HAVE ALL ITS ORGANS SO ITS NOT ALIVE, ITS LIKE A NAIL OR A ROCK!!!".

Its an early form of humanhood. I find it surprising that people try to circumvent this in their pursuit of defending abortion. If you want to defend abortion, do so on merits that make sense. Don't try to make significant events arbitrary.

Everyone who is on this earth had all the programming and potential once their dad fertilized their mom.

And don't give me that "is a tomato see a tomato?" crap, because that's false. Is a germinated tomato seed a tomato plant? Or is it a dead nail?

Argue your abortion shit without changing simple fundamental realities to suit your argument.

The real argument is that since it can't feel at the very earliest stages, and that it has no cognitive abilities for a while, and that it takes up little space in the nother, and that you wouldn't recognize it smiling at you in the first trimester or however long you abortion advocates think, that its not that bad. .

Fine, stick with that, but the thing is a human, once it has its own unique dna structure.
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At conception which is defined as when the egg splits. The period between the time the sperm enters the egg and the egg splits there is no human life.

As anti-abortionists used to say, "Why argue with science.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
/lol.......so forty five pages later you decide that wasn't what you were arguing?......
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I know exactly what I was arguing and that was the foundation all anti-abortionist arguments are based on is a lie. Read the article, assuming you can read, and you'll see it explains it so even a 10 year old can understand.

The fertilization of an egg by a sperm takes 22-24 hours. A human life or human being or a person or anything else does not instantly appear the moment the sperm enters the egg. There is no instant human being.

That has been the anti-abortionist argument since they first heard of DNA and it's as asinine as every other argument they have tried to use to lie and control people. Be it the insane idea a soul enters a male fetus at 40 days and a female fetus at 90 days (sexist pigs!):lol: to the wacky idea the first time a pregnant woman feels the fetus move (quickening) around 14 weeks with the exact time depending, I suppose, on whether the soul had prior engagements noted in their "daily agenda".

Sooner or later every scam has been exposed just like this last one. That was the purpose of the discussion because there can be no discussion until the preposterous idea of instant humans at the time the sperm and egg meet had been debunked. And debunked it has been.

I have done my best to be gracious to my opponents as evidenced by the remarks I made to Bravo. However, some folks, for whatever reason, just won't get off the merry-go-round.

For those unable to accept the facts stated in the link supplied by Bravo I submit the following picture of a soul entering an embryo. http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/15/photograph-of-a-soul-entering-an-embryo/#comments

No, I can not debunk that photo so the anti-abortionists can run with that and claim victory.
 
apple0154 said:
Just as the process of fertilization takes up to 24 hours the process of something becoming a human life takes time. It has been determined by science a human life does not pop into existence at the moment a sperm and egg join because it is a process.That has been determined. It is not open for discussion or speculation.

What can be discussed/speculated on is whether one considers the splitting of the cells constitute a human being but the idea a human being or human life comes into existence at the moment a sperm and cell unite just isn't the case. It's a process and before the process is complete, usually one day, there is nothing formed to call a human life. It is a sperm and an egg working together to form something one may call a human life assuming they are working together, of course.
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Lets use our own logic and common sense.
Lets parse YOUR words in bold....
Maybe we're getting somewhere...

Your words make it seem you now agree that:

1..Sperm and egg meet, and begin a process
2..Working together they form a living human being (taking about 24 hours)that nurtured, will exist many years.
Or did I read something thats not there?

You realize this is what most of us have claimed from the beginning....

Some have implied that we can't pinpoint exactly when in the 24 hr. process the life is created and thats absolutely true...maybe its hour 22 or maybe its hour 10 or maybe its hour 2....maybe
Some believe the process itself constitutes the start of development (LIFE)

Can anyone play God and assume "facts" we just can't and don't know?
 
apple0154 said:
the foundation all anti-abortionist arguments are based on is a lie
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???....how can you make such an absurd claim....are you denying that the unborn child is a human being?....no, all you've ever claimed is that half of all zygotes die between conception and attaching to the birth mother's womb.....not only does that not disprove the foundation of the anti-abortionist argument, it doesn't even address it.....the argument is, that fetus you want to kill is human....it's alive.....it has as much right to life as you do.....
 
apple0154 said:
At conception which is defined as when the egg splits. The period between the time the sperm enters the egg and the egg splits there is no human life.

As anti-abortionists used to say, "Why argue with science.
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So you claiming that a dead egg splits and magically becomes alive ?

Doesn't a cell have to be alive to split ?

The splitting of the cell is only the visual proof that there is life there....
 
bravo said:
Lets use our own logic and common sense.
Lets parse YOUR words in bold....
Maybe we're getting somewhere...

Your words make it seem you now agree that:

1..Sperm and egg meet, and begin a process
2..Working together they form a living human being (taking about 24 hours)that nurtured, will exist many years.
Or did I read something thats not there?

You realize this is what most of us have claimed from the beginning....
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I wrote, "It is a sperm and an egg working together to form something one may call a human life assuming they are working together, of course."

We know over 50% are not working together so the point is every cell is definitely not working on becoming a human being. And we know the anti-abortionist argument was every cell was a human being so that puts an end to their argument.

Some have implied that we can't pinpoint exactly when in the 24 hr. process the life is created and thats absolutely true...maybe its hour 22 or maybe its hour 10 or maybe its hour 2....maybe
Click to expand...
Some believe the process itself constitutes the start of development (LIFE)

Can anyone play God and assume "facts" we just can't and don't know?
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The article said between 22 and 24 hours. 10 and 2 does not fit between 22 and 24. Who implied it can be 2 or 10?
 
PostmodernProphet said:
???....how can you make such an absurd claim....are you denying that the unborn child is a human being?....no, all you've ever claimed is that half of all zygotes die between conception and attaching to the birth mother's womb.....not only does that not disprove the foundation of the anti-abortionist argument, it doesn't even address it.....the argument is, that fetus you want to kill is human....it's alive.....it has as much right to life as you do.....
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:nono: The anti-abortionist argument was a human being comes into existence the moment the sperm enters the egg and that idea has been proven wrong. It is a process. It does not happen in a moment.
 
bravo said:
So you claiming that a dead egg splits and magically becomes alive ?

Doesn't a cell have to be alive to split ?

The splitting of the cell is only the visual proof that there is life there....
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The cell has to split before it's considered a human life according to science. That is the answer. Save your breath or should I say your typing fingers by not asking silly questions. The cell has to split before being considered a human being or human life. Period. That will not change regardless of how many questions you ask or how you phrase them.
 
apple0154 said:
:nono: The anti-abortionist argument was a human being comes into existence the moment the sperm enters the egg and that idea has been proven wrong. It is a process. It does not happen in a moment.
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so what....it's happened long before any women tries to decide whether to have an abortion.....whether it happens three weeks before a woman knows she is pregnant or three weeks and 59 hours before she knows she is pregnant does not make a difference....
 
apple0154 said:
The cell has to split before it's considered a human life according to science. That is the answer. Save your breath or should I say your typing fingers by not asking silly questions. The cell has to split before being considered a human being or human life. Period. That will not change regardless of how many questions you ask or how you phrase them.
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The cell has to split before it's considered a human life according to science. ??

Thats nonsense....the cell splitting is just obvious visual proof its alive...the cell didn't go from dead, to splitting, and magically its now alive....
Man...is there a brain in that skull of yours?

The cell splitting event was to prove to you that the zygote was alive in that early stage( within 24 hours)....no one claimed it was dead before the event except you.

What is it 1 millisecond before it splits, a pimple? A dead pimple ?
 
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The sperm penetrating the egg STARTS a chain of events that lead to a baby being born....one can claim that that event alone is the beginning of life....because THAT IS THE START of the entire process.....
How many that are naturally aborted during the process is irrelevant....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
so what....it's happened long before any women tries to decide whether to have an abortion.....whether it happens three weeks before a woman knows she is pregnant or three weeks and 59 hours before she knows she is pregnant does not make a difference....
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It's not just the fact it takes approximately a day.

When science first started to connect the dots between the sperm and egg and DNA and being able to see an actual sperm enter an egg the anti-abortionists ran with it. They immediately drew the mistaken conclusion that was the moment a human being came into existence. Science had not progressed to the point where it could determine if it was a spontaneous event or a process so the anti-abortionists said it was spontaneous and, thus, their platform of "science/DNA proves it" was born.

As I mentioned before this has been the MO of anti-abortionists down through the ages. They state something as fact before we really know and then push their agenda on others.

Now we know it takes a day. It is not spontaneous. That has been determined.

Now science tells us when the cell splits it's a human life or, more accurately, an organism. How long has science known that? Do you think it's possible there may be other discoveries which may alter that conclusion just as it took time to discover the fertilization of a cell does not happen in a moment?

The point is there was a time between science knowing the overarching sperm and egg/DNA/cell fertilization connection and the time science knew it was a process and not a spontaneous event.

Are we so sure we know all there is to know to the degree we should pass laws concerning the most intimate aspects of a woman's life?

That, IMO, is what this is all about. It's getting people to think of the seriousness of proposed laws weighed against partial knowledge.
 
Now science tells us when the cell splits it's a human life or, more accurately, an organism. How long has science known that? Do you think it's possible there may be other discoveries which may alter that conclusion just as it took time to discover the fertilization of a cell does not happen in a moment?
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No, science tells us when a sperm cell permeates an egg cell and starts the process of life, a living organism has begun the process of life, and since it is from human reproduction, it is human life. You are the only fool on this board uttering this nonsense to the contrary, not even the most adamant pro-abortionist is defending your idiocy.

There is no question as to when the biological process of life begins! It can not be disputed because we know how life is defined, we know what an organism is, we know what makes it an organism, we know when it is behaving as an organism should, we know precisely what kind of living organism it is, and when the process of living for that organism began. It's not a speculation or a guess, it is defined by the parameters we've established in science to define life and the processes of all living things, it is a study known as "BIOLOGY!"
 
bravo said:
The cell has to split before it's considered a human life according to science. ??

Thats nonsense....the cell splitting is just obvious visual proof its alive...the cell didn't go from dead, to splitting, and magically its now alive....
Man...is there a brain in that skull of yours?

The cell splitting event was to prove to you that the zygote was alive in that early stage( within 24 hours)....no one claimed it was dead before the event except you.

What is it 1 millisecond before it splits, a pimple? A dead pimple ?
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Why don't you take your argument up with Damocles? You're both anti-abortionists and he believes the fertilization of a cell is when the cell splits. Obviously, before fertilization, there is no human life or human being.

I'm not getting back on the merry-go-round to discuss it with you just so someone else can jump in half way through the discussion to tell me they are not arguing that point.
 
bravo said:
The sperm penetrating the egg STARTS a chain of events that lead to a baby being born....one can claim that that event alone is the beginning of life....because THAT IS THE START of the entire process.....
How many that are naturally aborted during the process is irrelevant....
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A process it not a finished product so one can not logically argue a sperm entering an egg is a human being. If there is a pile of lumber in an empty lot does a carpenter picking up a hammer constitute there is a house there?

Why, oh why, do anti-abortionists argue in such a way that would be considered ludicrous in any other situation?

The coming of a human being into the world is a process. Until that process is completed there is no human being. This general rule-of-thumb is taught in the earliest school grades. If one proposed every child in Grade One was a doctor because all doctors started out in Grade One the person listening to such craziness would shake their head and walk away.
 
bravo said:
I'm finished with this stupidity.....
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Congratulations! I've always maintained with all the misinformation and the deliberate twisting and absurd arguments put forward by anti-abortionists it's understandable people start to believe the most preposterous things.

No one holds it against you. I definitely don't. :clink:
 
Dixie said:
No, science tells us when a sperm cell permeates an egg cell and starts the process of life, a living organism has begun the process of life, and since it is from human reproduction, it is human life. You are the only fool on this board uttering this nonsense to the contrary, not even the most adamant pro-abortionist is defending your idiocy.

There is no question as to when the biological process of life begins! It can not be disputed because we know how life is defined, we know what an organism is, we know what makes it an organism, we know when it is behaving as an organism should, we know precisely what kind of living organism it is, and when the process of living for that organism began. It's not a speculation or a guess, it is defined by the parameters we've established in science to define life and the processes of all living things, it is a study known as "BIOLOGY!"
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Wrong. The study says a conception does not take place until the cell divides and it is necessary for a cell to divide in order for there to be a human life/being.

We do know that over 50% of cells in which the sperm has entered have not grown. In other words nothing started so to say or assume or imply every cell which a sperm has entered is a human being is simply wrong.

Do some research. Please.
 
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