Why Should Anyone Believe in Global Warming?

[gfm7175]

Now we're back to close to where we started in early October, which is that the CO2 molecules in the atmosphere absorb the infrared light leaving the earth and some part of what is absorbed is radiated back toward earth. That is the fundamental basis for climate change.

Now we're back to close to where we started in early October, which is that you are in egregious violation of the Stefan Boltzmann law via attempting to reduce Earth's radiance while increasing Earth's temperature. You are also in egregious violation of thermodynamics via attempting to heat the warmer surface of Earth using the much cooler CO2 in Earth's atmosphere, and also via attempting to increase Earth's temperature without any additional thermal energy.

[DELETED HOLY LINK COPY/PASTE]

A holy link is not science but is rather a false authority, ergo, it is summarily dismissed.

Science is the true authority here (e.g. Stefan Boltzmann Law, Laws of Thermodynamics, Planck's Law, Ohm's Law, etc...)

 

[IBDaMann]

Why would an atmosphere impact surface temperatures?

I covered this. The atmosphere is part of the surface if you are speaking within the context of black body science.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Wow. The kids on the short bus are laughing at you, dude......

You'd only know that because you're on the bus with them, Sybil.

Were you always "special"?

 

[ZenMode]

Wow. The kids on the short bus are laughing at you, dude......

In case you missed my tone... that was sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.

 

[gfm7175]

In case you missed my tone... that was sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.

"Tone" doesn't translate well on an online discussion forum and is mostly just whatever the reader assigns it to be while the reader reads through the text that the poster posted.

As far as I could tell, you once again asked a question that's already been answered countless times.

 

[Into the Night]

Now we're back to close to where we started in early October, which is that the CO2 molecules in the atmosphere absorb the infrared light leaving the earth and some part of what is absorbed is radiated back toward earth. That is the fundamental basis for climate change.

You cannot heat the warmer surface using a colder gas.

You have already learned that Earth's atmosphere is composed primarily of nitrogen and oxygen. These gases are transparent to incoming solar radiation.

No, they absorb infrared light too.

They are also transparent to outgoing infrared radiation,

No, they absorb infrared light too.

Did you know the surface is COOLED by emitting infrared light? So is every gas that emits infrared light. You don't get something for nothing. You cannot create energy out of nothing.

which means that they do not absorb or emit solar or infrared radiation.

They all absorb solar radiation. None emit solar radiation since they are not in the Sun.

However, there are other gases in Earth's atmosphere that do absorb infrared radiation.

All gases absorb infrared light. Most of the light from the Sun is infrared light.

These gases are known as greenhouse gases.

So all gases are 'greenhouse gases'. Why not just say 'gases'?

Below are the most important greenhouse gases that influence Earth's climate system.

There is no such thing as a 'climate system'. There is no such thing as a global climate. Climate cannot change.

Water vapor (H2O)

Water vapor (H2O) is the strongest greenhouse gas, and the concentration of this gas is largely controlled by the temperature of the atmosphere. As air becomes warmer, it can hold more moisture or water vapor. When the air becomes saturated (or holds as much moisture as the air can at that temperature), the excess moisture will condense into cloud droplets. And if these droplets are large enough, they will fall as precipitation.

So you consider water is a pollutant?

Carbon dioxide (CO2)

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is also an important greenhouse gas. It has a long lifetime in Earth's atmosphere. Carbon dioxide strongly absorbs energy with a wavelength of 15 μm (micrometers). This makes carbon dioxide a good absorber of wavelengths falling in the infrared radiation region of the spectrum.

So you consider CO2 is a pollutant?

Methane (CH4)

Methane (CH4) is 30 times stronger than carbon dioxide as an absorber of infrared radiation. Methane, however, is present in smaller concentrations than carbon dioxide, so its net contribution to the greenhouse effect is not as large. Methane is also relatively short-lived (lasting approximately 8 years) in the atmosphere. Methane is produced when bacteria decompose organic plant and animal matter in such places as wetlands (e.g., marshes, mudflats, flooded rice fields), sewage treatment plants, landfills, and the guts of cattle and termites. Scientists are concerned about the concentration of methane increasing in regions where the Arctic and alpine permafrost is thawing and releasing methane as it warms.

So you consider methane as a pollutant?

Halocarbons are composed of carbon, chlorine, fluorine, and hydrogen. They include chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), which are man-made gases commonly used in refrigerators and air conditioners. Concentrations of CFC gases in the atmosphere are the highest of any of the halocarbons, and they can absorb more infrared radiation than any other greenhouse gas. The impact of 1 molecule of a CFC gas is equivalent to 10,000 molecules of carbon dioxide.

The 'impact' is zero, so 10,000 times zero is zero. You're must making up numbers now.

NO gas or vapor is capable of warming anything that is already warmer than itself. You cannot heat a warmer surface using a colder gas. You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

Nitrous oxide (N2O)

Nitrous oxide (N2O), a relatively long-lived gas, has increased in atmospheric concentration due mainly to agriculture. Nitrate (NO3-) and ammonia (NH4+) are used as fertilizers. Bacteria convert a small amount of this nitrate and ammonia into the form of nitrous oxide. Internal combustion engines also produce nitrous oxide.

So you consider nitrogen a pollutant?

Ozone (O3)

Ozone (O3) is also a relatively minor greenhouse gas because it is found in relatively low concentrations in the troposphere (the lowest layer of the atmosphere). In the troposphere, it is produced by a combination of pollutants — mostly hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxide compounds.

What 'pollutants'? Do you now consider oxygen a pollutant? O3 is made from the action of ultraviolet light on oxygen. Hydrocarbons are: heavier than air, and have no oxygen.

https://www.ces.fau.edu/nasa/module-2/how-greenhouse-effect-works.php

This this is where you are cut and pasting from? It's wrong.

Absorption of visible light does not convert to thermal energy. Only the absorption of infrared light converts to thermal energy. That's quantum mechanics that you are denying.
The infrared light the surface emits COOLS the surface. It requires energy to convert thermal energy into electromagnetic energy. It doesn't come for free. You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again.
EVERYTHING emits light according to it's temperature. There are no exceptions. There are no changes due to what that substance is. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
You cannot use a colder gas to heat a warmer surface. You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

NASA isn't science, dude. They are a GOVERNMENT AGENCY. They cannot set aside these theories of science any more than you can.

Water is not a pollutant. It naturally occurs. Do you want to get rid of the oceans, lakes, and rivers because of 'climate change'?
Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. It naturally occurs. Do you want to get rid of plants and yourself?
Methane is not a pollutant. It naturally occurs. Do you want to get rid of wetlands, compost piles, animals, and yourself?
CFC's are not manufactured today due to idiocy from the Church of the Ozone Hole. Where are THEY coming from??
Ozone is not a pollutant. It naturally occurs. Do you want to get rid of thunderstorms, sunlight, air fresheners, and the ozone layer now???

ALL gases and materials absorb infrared light. Good thing, too. It is the ONLY way Earth is warmed by the Sun. An absorbed photon is utterly DESTROYED. It cannot be 're-emitted'. No molecule or atom will absorb a photon that has less energy than the molecule or photon already has.

ALL gases and materials also emit light in accordance with the Stefan-Boltzmann law. Yes, the surface emits primarily infrared light. So does EVERY GAS MOLECULE. Not every frequency of infrared light is equal. Not every photon is equal in energy. You are ignoring Planck's law again.

Infrared light from the Sun heats the Earth. That's EVERYTHING that sunlight reaches, including all gases in the atmosphere. All of these things are also above absolute zero in temperature, so they therefore also convert the thermal energy they have into light. Like a 'glowing coal', Earth is snuggled up fairly close to the 'fire' of the Sun, and like a glowing coal, it cannot heat itself. It loses every bit of energy that it receives from the Sun.

Remember that Earth spins once per day. Only half of the Earth receives infrared light from the Sun at a time. Earth, however, radiates infrared light in ALL DIRECTIONS, just as any gas molecule does. The key thing you are leaving out (except in your stupid link that you copped out to using instead of explaining it yourself) is that you are literally trying to heat a warmer surface using a colder gas.

YOU CAN'T.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

You cannot heat the warmer surface using a colder gas.

I love how you claim so loudly that others are violating laws of thermo while you, yourself, seem to have ZERO understanding that when IR is ABSORBED THE MOLECULE IS ABSORBING ENERGY. ENERGY.

Look at that word again: ENERGY.

The IR photon is a photon of energy and the C=O bond ABSORBS that energy since it oscilates at a particular frequency.

This is how FTIR's work in the laboratory.

And it's how the atmosphere works. The IR energy is there. No one is warming the surface with a "cooler gas" as you say.

I wish you were smarter because then it might make your usual posts survivable for most readers.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

ALL gases and materials absorb infrared light.

Not really. Only certain bonds absorb in the Infrared. That's how science works. Diatomic molecules like N2 don't absorb IR.

(SOURCE)

For others they absorb but only barely. Something like CO2, on the other hand, has a couple of absorption bands in the IR. The motion of the C=O bond provides that ability to absorb IR.

Good thing, too. It is the ONLY way Earth is warmed by the Sun.

If there were no greenhouse gases like CO2 and H2O in the atmosphere the surface of the earth would be about 30degC cooler on average. This is what the Stefan-Boltzmann equation tells you. If you understood it.

An absorbed photon is utterly DESTROYED.

So you think that the First Law of Thermo isn't real? You can't "utterly destroy" energy...you have to transfer it to some other form. Gosh you really don't know a THING about this do you?

You're just yanking people's chains now. You can't possibly be that dumb.

 

[Into the Night]

I love how you claim so loudly that others are violating laws of thermo while you, yourself, seem to have ZERO understanding that when IR is ABSORBED THE MOLECULE IS ABSORBING ENERGY. ENERGY.

I never said any differently.

Look at that word again: ENERGY.

I never said any differently.

The IR photon is a photon of energy and the C=O bond ABSORBS that energy since it oscilates at a particular frequency.

Not the reason a photon is absorbed. You are ignoring quantum mechanics again. ALL materials absorb infrared light and convert to thermal energy. BTW, CO2 has TWO oxygen atoms in the molecule, not one.

This is how FTIR's work in the laboratory.

Irrelevant strawman.

And it's how the atmosphere works. The IR energy is there. No one is warming the surface with a "cooler gas" as you say.

YOU are trying to. It is YOU that is saying that infrared light emitted by CO2 is absorbed by the surface. You cannot warm a warmer object with a colder one.

I wish you were smarter because then it might make your usual posts survivable for most readers.

You died reading my posts?? Then who is typing, your ghost??

 

[Saint Guinefort]

YOU are trying to. It is YOU that is saying that infrared light emitted by CO2 is absorbed by the surface. You cannot warm a warmer object with a colder one.

The IR photon is not from the CO2 molecule you moron. It is from the sun which bombards the surface of the earth with radiation (mostly shortwave radiation) which is then absorbed by the solid earth and re-radiated back out ("downconverted") as IR photons.

And, yes, when the CO2 molecule absorbs IR it can then re-radiate it back out which it usually does.

When you hold your hand over a hot stove it is radiating IR photons which is the warmth you feel.

You should be ASHAMED AT HOW IGNORANT YOU ARE ON THIS TOPIC.

 

[Into the Night]

Not really. Only certain bonds absorb in the Infrared.

Bonds do not absorb light. Molecules and atoms do. ALL substances absorb infrared light.

That's how science works.

Science isn't work. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. Theories that you simply deny and discard.

Diatomic molecules like N2 don't absorb IR.

They certainly do.

(SOURCE)

I see where you are cut and pasting stuff from. It's wrong. Not only does this article deny quantum mechanics, it actually claims that an absorbed photon is not destroyed. It is. Utterly destroyed. The absorbed photon NO LONGER EXISTS. The article also ignores the 1st law of thermodynamics. Emitting light due to Stefan Boltzmann causes the emitting material to cool. You are STILL trying to ignore the 1st law of thermodynamics. You can't heat a warmer surface using a colder gas. You are STILL trying to ignore the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

For others they absorb but only barely.

ALL materials absorb infrared light.

Something like CO2, on the other hand, has a couple of absorption bands in the IR.

ALL materials have absorption bands in the IR.

The motion of the C=O bond provides that ability to absorb IR.

Motion does not allow absorption.

If there were no greenhouse gases like CO2 and H2O in the atmosphere the surface of the earth would be about 30degC cooler on average.

Oh, THIS number again? Stop making shit up.

This is what the Stefan-Boltzmann equation tells you.
If you understood it.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law does not calculate temperature. You are denying the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.

So you think that the First Law of Thermo isn't real?

It is. You are ignoring it.

You can't "utterly destroy" energy...you have to transfer it to some other form. Gosh you really don't know a THING about this do you?

I'm not trying to destroy energy. YOU are trying to create energy out of nothing.

You're just yanking people's chains now. You can't possibly be that dumb.

You're chained? Is that to keep you from hurting someone?

 

[Into the Night]

The IR photon is not from the CO2 molecule you moron. It is from the sun which bombards the surface of the earth with radiation (mostly shortwave radiation) which is then absorbed by the solid earth and re-radiated back out ("downconverted") as IR photons.

You cannot re-radiate a photon that's been absorbed, dude. The photon is DESTROYED. CO2 does emit NEW photons, just as any substance above absolute zero would.

And, yes, when the CO2 molecule absorbs IR it can then re-radiate it back out which it usually does.

You cannot re-radiate a photon that's been absorbed, dude. The photon is DESTROYED. It no longer exists!

CO2, like any other material above absolute zero, DOES radiate NEW photons by converting thermal energy into electromagnetic energy. This COOLS the molecule, just as the surface is cooled by radiating new photons in exactly the same way.

You are AGAIN ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics. You cannot heat a warmer surface with a colder gas. You cannot heat warmer object with a colder one.

When you hold your hand over a hot stove it is radiating IR photons which is the warmth you feel.

The stove is warmer than my hand. You CAN heat a colder object with a warmer one, but you CANNOT heat a warmer object with a colder one.

You should be ASHAMED AT HOW IGNORANT YOU ARE ON THIS TOPIC.

That would be you. You seem to assume things that I've 'said' that I've never said. You also insist on ignoring the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law and Plank's laws.

You seem to think that Holy Links are a form of proof. People write all sorts of random shit on the internet, including the government. That doesn't make them true.
You seem to grope for false authorities. The ONLY authoritative reference of ANY theory of science is the theory itself.

1st law of thermodynamics: E(t+1) = E(t) - U where 'E' is energy, and 't' is time, and 'U' is 'work', or force applied over time. The presence of a gas is not work, therefore 'U' is zero. The equation then becomes E(t+1) = E(t). You can convert energy, but you cannot create or destroy it. Converting thermal energy to light reduces the average thermal energy, and temperature is lowered. The substance is COOLED.

2nd law of thermodynamics: e(t+1) >= e(t) where 'e' is 'entropy', or available work (expressed as a concentrations of energy), and 't' is time. This law defines heat and gives it a direction. You cannot heat a warmer surface using a colder gas.

Stefan-Boltzmann law: r = C*e*t^4, where 'r' is RADIANCE (not temperature) in watts per square area, 'C' is a natural constant (which serves to convert the relation to our units of measurement), 'e' is how well a surface or material absorbs or emits light (a measured constant), and 't' is temperature in deg K. This law no term for frequency, type of substance, etc. It is the SAME FOR ALL SUBSTANCES. ALL frequencies are considered.

You have ignored all three of these laws. They are theories of science. They cannot be discarded for any reason, not even by using a Holy Link.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Bonds do not absorb light. Molecules and atoms do. ALL substances absorb infrared light.

Science isn't work. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. Theories that you simply deny and discard.

They certainly do.

I see where you are cut and pasting stuff from. It's wrong. Not only does this article deny quantum mechanics, it actually claims that an absorbed photon is not destroyed. It is. Utterly destroyed. The absorbed photon NO LONGER EXISTS. The article also ignores the 1st law of thermodynamics. Emitting light due to Stefan Boltzmann causes the emitting material to cool. You are STILL trying to ignore the 1st law of thermodynamics. You can't heat a warmer surface using a colder gas. You are STILL trying to ignore the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

ALL materials absorb infrared light.

ALL materials have absorption bands in the IR.

Motion does not allow absorption.

Oh, THIS number again? Stop making shit up.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law does not calculate temperature. You are denying the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.

It is. You are ignoring it.

I'm not trying to destroy energy. YOU are trying to create energy out of nothing.

You're chained? Is that to keep you from hurting someone?

You clearly don't know the first foreign thing about ANY of this topic. You are a joke.

 

[Into the Night]

You clearly don't know the first foreign thing about ANY of this topic. You are a joke.

1st law of thermodynamics: E(t+1) = E(t) - U where 'E' is energy, and 't' is time, and 'U' is 'work', or force applied over time. The presence of a gas is not work, therefore 'U' is zero. The equation then becomes E(t+1) = E(t). You can convert energy, but you cannot create or destroy it. Converting thermal energy to light reduces the average thermal energy, and temperature is lowered. The substance is COOLED.

2nd law of thermodynamics: e(t+1) >= e(t) where 'e' is 'entropy', or available work (expressed as a concentrations of energy), and 't' is time. This law defines heat and gives it a direction. You cannot heat a warmer surface using a colder gas.

Stefan-Boltzmann law: r = C*e*t^4, where 'r' is RADIANCE (not temperature) in watts per square area, 'C' is a natural constant (which serves to convert the relation to our units of measurement), 'e' is how well a surface or material absorbs or emits light (a measured constant), and 't' is temperature in deg K. This law no term for frequency, type of substance, etc. It is the SAME FOR ALL SUBSTANCES. ALL frequencies are considered.

You have ignored all three of these laws. They are theories of science. They cannot be discarded for any reason, not even by trying to insult someone.


Here's another little thing for you to consider:

The International Space Station routinely measures the skin temperature at various points. There is no appreciable amount of CO2, water, methane, or anything else at the station. It's sunlight (daytime) skin temperature often reaches 250 deg F. On the surface of Earth, with CO2 and water vapor and methane present, the surface temperature during daylight that any point has never come close to this (the highest so far measured is a Death Valley, a temperature of 134 deg F. If CO2, water vapor, and methane warm the Earth, why is the surface of Earth so much COLDER???

 

[Saint Guinefort]

1st law of thermodynamics: E(t+1) = E(t) - U where 'E' is energy, and 't' is time, and 'U' is 'work', or force applied over time. The presence of a gas is not work, therefore 'U' is zero. The equation then becomes E(t+1) = E(t). You can convert energy, but you cannot create or destroy it. Converting thermal energy to light reduces the average thermal energy, and temperature is lowered. The substance is COOLED.

2nd law of thermodynamics: e(t+1) >= e(t) where 'e' is 'entropy', or available work (expressed as a concentrations of energy), and 't' is time. This law defines heat and gives it a direction. You cannot heat a warmer surface using a colder gas.

Stefan-Boltzmann law: r = C*e*t^4, where 'r' is RADIANCE (not temperature) in watts per square area, 'C' is a natural constant (which serves to convert the relation to our units of measurement), 'e' is how well a surface or material absorbs or emits light (a measured constant), and 't' is temperature in deg K. This law no term for frequency, type of substance, etc. It is the SAME FOR ALL SUBSTANCES. ALL frequencies are considered.

You have ignored all three of these laws. They are theories of science. They cannot be discarded for any reason, not even by trying to insult someone.


Here's another little thing for you to consider:

The International Space Station routinely measures the skin temperature at various points. There is no appreciable amount of CO2, water, methane, or anything else at the station. It's sunlight (daytime) skin temperature often reaches 250 deg F. On the surface of Earth, with CO2 and water vapor and methane present, the surface temperature during daylight that any point has never come close to this (the highest so far measured is a Death Valley, a temperature of 134 deg F. If CO2, water vapor, and methane warm the Earth, why is the surface of Earth so much COLDER???

Keep poundin' the keys. Some day you'll take a science class.

 

[Flash]

There are many religions in our world and they are all different. Each one has a unique dogma that affords comfort to the believer and helps him cope with a chaotic and confusing world ... each one except for Global Warming that is. This religion seems only to instill fear and panic. Most religions are portrayed as a form of "good news" to be celebrated whereas everything about Global Warming is hyped as "bad news" that might already be "too late" and "past the tipping point."

Further, most religions are honest matters of faith whereas the Church of Global Warming specifically targets for recruitment the gullible and the scientifically illiterate because its dogma mandates the belief that egregious violations of physics are "Settled Science."

Question: why would any rational adult adopt the Global Warming faith?

You obviously have no clue what constitutes a religion.

 

[gfm7175]

You clearly don't know the first foreign thing about ANY of this topic. You are a joke.

He's expressed all sorts of correct information about this topic, even posting the mathematical formulas themselves and explaining them for you.

You haven't expressed anything outside of copy/pasting words from holy links. You are here to preach, not to learn.

 

[Into the Night]

Keep poundin' the keys. Some day you'll take a science class.

Science is not a class. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. You are ignoring several of them.

 

[gfm7175]

Keep poundin' the keys. Some day you'll take a science class.

Yup, you are here to preach, not to learn. You refuse to address any of the science that is being shared with you. You discard it on sight in favor of your wacky religion that believes that putting enough ice cubes into room temperature water will bring that water up to a boil...

 

[Into the Night]

You obviously have no clue what constitutes a religion.

Let's see your philosophy of what defines 'religion' for you then.