Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

So you are just recycling this stupid argument I already debunked and disproved prior. Ok then.

You never debunked anything. Hallucination.

the REASONS all other forms of vehicles fell behind ICE were many.

And they are still there. Long recharge times, heavy unwieldy car, expensive, and limited range.

The biggest one was that gas station roll out, extended the range of ICE vehicles.

Gasoline was for sale long before gasoline cars, dumbass. It was used in 'auto' engines, which were fixed engines doing some job on a farm or in a factory.

The Oil and Gas industry supplying that gas, was highly subsidized by gov't and still is over 100 years later

It was never subsidized. You are hallucinating again.

despite you lying and claiming they have never received subsidies.

They didn't. It's not a lie.

They are IN FACT one of the most subsidized industries in American history, up their with farming.

Nope. Not subsidized at all. Farming isn't either.

in the next highest grouping of subsidized / bailouts (tax payer money) are companies like airlines

Airlines are not subsidized either.

and ICE Manufacturers.

The only ICE manufacturer bought out was the one that failed (General Motors). That's communism, dude, and GM cars are shit (their trucks still are decent).

they have got massive sums of tax payer to help restructure ultimately keeping the ICE product cost artificially low.

Nope. No subsidies. Government instead taxes the hell out of gasoline production and distribution.

So the gov't had a huge hand in picking winners and losers, in that regard.

And they chose the losers: EVs, windmills, solar panels, r134a, etc.

So what you call EV being forced into the market

It was. You seem to think that the government mandates for EVs and their charging stations don't exist. They do.

is because finally the thumb on the scale ICE has had for 100 years+

Never did.

is being made available to EV's to create more of a fair playing field.

CAPITALISM IS THE LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Not fascism, not communism. An open market is the ultimate fair playing field.

 

[Into the Night]

Electric cars were ignored because we were ass deep in oil and gas. We also did not know the environmental and health costs. Showing electric cars from 1900 is meaningless. ICEs were crappy then too.

Ford was founded in 1903 and sold their first wildly successful product, the Model A. Thousands bought them.
EVs have been around since 1830, and gasoline cars quickly overtook them in the marketplace.

You have not stated any 'environmental' or 'health' 'costs'. Void argument fallacy.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Do you mean like this?

Evs have the same varieties as ICEs.

BMW / Volkswagen owns Rolls Royce. It wasn't made by government fiat. In fact, building cars in England is easier because there are fewer regulations than building them in the US or for US sales.

 

[Into the Night]

The Lithium batteries will only last about 18 months with normal usage, less if used more frequently.

Li-ion batteries, such as used in cars (and power tools) last quite a long time, even ten and in some cases twenty years.

The cost of the new battery, installed, is around $14K, and that doesn't included the EPA $6K battery disposal fee.

You're out of date. Replacing a battery on a Tesla Model 3 will run you around $20,000. It can only be done in specially equipped shops that can handle the fire risks involved and the weight of the battery pack.

There currently is not plant or facility anywhere in the world for dealing with the dead, 2000lbs toxic battery hulks.

Battery packs are generally recycled. There's such a plant in Reno. This one plant alone processes over 20,000 metric tons of batteries per year. There are others, of course. Tesla itself contracts with several of them.

The electricity to remediate just ONE sedan sized battery is the energy equivalent to running a gasoline engine for the same size sedan for 10 years. Each Sedan sized dead lithium battery will need 50,000 gallons of fresh water to process.

Nowhere near it. You are making shit up. Water is pricey in Reno, and this plant recycles their water (treating as needed for the continuous cycle).

Unremediated deal battery hulks will always have the cells swell and burst, leaking toxic lithium hydrocarbons into the ground water

Lithium is not a hydrocarbon. It's an element. Li-ion batteries have no hydrocarbons.

causing Cancers,

Neither Li-ion batteries nor hydrocarbons cause cancer.

Birth defects,

Neither Li-ion batteries nor hydrocarbons cause birth defects.

and violent mental illness. aka zombie land.

That's caused by fentanyl, not Li-ion batteries.

The Lithium battery EVs are going to become the biggest environmental disaster in world history, by a wide margin.

The largest disaster in history (if you don't include the Bible) is the Flood of China in 1931, which left 4 million people killed.
The largest recent event resulting in death was the Black Plague, which killed HALF OF EUROPE (approx 50 million people killed).

The basic concept of a low pollution electrically chargeable vehicle is not a bad idea,

You are going to have to define the 'pollution' first. Void argument fallacy. You are also going to have to deal with the limited range, heavy weight, and inconvenience of EVs.

if the energy storage mechanism were the new sodium batteries (not yet proven),

Sodium batteries are three times heavier than Li-ion batteries. Sodium is heavier, you see. It also has less joules per kilogram available than Li-ion. This is electrochemistry. These are constants. They cannot be changed.

Liquid-Air,

Extremely limited range and expensive to produce the 'fuel'.

Flywheels,

Even more limited range.

Synthetic Methane from Atmospheric CO2,

Methane occurs naturally. It's an easy to find and easy to make hydrocarbon. You can find methane in landfills, compost heaps, swamps, wells, etc.

just about anything but Lithium batteries.

Li-ion, actually. Lithium metal batteries are not rechargeable and if they catch fire produce a class D fire (no practical way to put it out). Cars use Li-ion batteries, which produce a class A fire (the battery pack is a class C fire until the entire pack is involved, which then reverts to a class A fire.

Lithium Battery EVs are a form of Suicide.

I know of no one that has committed suicide using a Li-ion battery.

 

[Into the Night]

Well, what they have right now is an old panel with insufficient wiring space (before code started including that requirement) using UB breakers

Yes, you can still get those--unlike the guy from the company told these people--but they're expensive and I really, really don't like using them. If it's simply a repair / replace to save money over a new panel, I'll get them for that. But you can't get new panels that use them now.

Very true. I don't blame you for that opinion at all.

It's better to just replace the damn thing with a new panel from a reputable supplier.

 

[RB 60]

Letting the government decide what kind of car you can have is a sure recipe for disaster.

Yeah, I get ya, but imagine putting a healthy 351 Windsor, a toploader and a narrowed 9" under that thing. YeeHaw!

 

[Nordberg]

BMW / Volkswagen owns Rolls Royce. It wasn't made by government fiat. In fact, building cars in England is easier because there are fewer regulations than building them in the US or for US sales.

Nothing has been made by fiat, not even the Fiat. All countries regulate automobiles and have from the beginning. We have safety standards in manufacturing and in cars. Of course, the truth is the opposite of your claim. https://windpact.com/us-car-regulat...s process,differ based on geographic location.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Lionfish]

 

[gfm7175]

A gasoline sedan can haul a trailer (to haul more firewood or anything else). Most EVs cannot tow at all...not even an empty utility trailer. Such a load is beyond the vehicle's GCWR (in other words, EVs use GVWR for GCWR).

Good point about the towing.

 

[Walt]

I feel embarrassed for the alt right posters who believe they can become an expert in anything in minutes. They clearly have never become an expert in anything, nor even come close, nor even met someone who came close.

WHOOOOOOOOOOA there, Bessy! Let me remind everyone of what you ACTUALLY said:

"It takes about 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert in something. Most people will not be an expert in anything. But Mann thinks he can become an expert in a minute or two, and thinks he is an expert in everything."

I stand by that. What amazes me is that you think one can become an expert in two minutes.

It didn't even take me anywhere near two hours to become an expert at sorting laundry by each clothing type, let alone 10-20 thousand hours like it apparently takes for YOU to become an expert at it.

You may have mastered sorting of clothes in two hours, you did not become an expert. Can you tell us all the chemistry behind clothes coloring, their reactions with each other, and their reactions with all the cleaning chemicals? Of course not.

The problem we have is grade inflation, and knowledge inflation, to the point that anyone who separates whites from colors thinks he deserves a Nobel Prize in Chemistry as an expert.

Speak for yourself. Just because YOU are unwilling to put in the time doesn't mean that other people aren't willing to put in the time.

Unwilling, and unable to put in all the time to learn about all the chemistry behind clothes washing. Somehow I doubt you have either.

Here is a simple question: I have started using a bit of bleach to mark tee shirts I consider old, or in bad shape. In every color(I have no white tee shirts), except light steal, bleach will leave a white spot. Why does bleach not work on light steal tee shirts?

I world renowned expert on clothes sorting would have no problem answering that question.

 

[Nordberg]

I feel embarrassed for the alt right posters who believe they can become an expert in anything in minutes. They clearly have never become an expert in anything, nor even come close, nor even met someone who came close.



I stand by that. What amazes me is that you think one can become an expert in two minutes.




You may have mastered sorting of clothes in two hours, you did not become an expert. Can you tell us all the chemistry behind clothes coloring, their reactions with each other, and their reactions with all the cleaning chemicals? Of course not.

The problem we have is grade inflation, and knowledge inflation, to the point that anyone who separates whites from colors thinks he deserves a Nobel Prize in Chemistry as an expert.



Unwilling, and unable to put in all the time to learn about all the chemistry behind clothes washing. Somehow I doubt you have either.

Here is a simple question: I have started using a bit of bleach to mark tee shirts I consider old, or in bad shape. In every color(I have no white tee shirts), except light steal, bleach will leave a white spot. Why does bleach not work on light steal tee shirts?

I world renowned expert on clothes sorting would have no problem answering that question.

They hate electric cars and have never been in one. They have no real-life knowledge or experience so they scour the internet looking for something, anything at all that says EVs are bad. owners love them. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppi...joy their,positive factors about EV ownership.
There are always bad cars made . The recall on ICEs are common and part of owning one. Same for EVs, but they are much simpler with far fewer parts and require a lot less maintenance.

 

[Walt]

They hate electric cars and have never been in one. They have no real-life knowledge or experience so they scour the internet looking for something, anything at all that says EVs are bad. owners love them. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppi...joy their,positive factors about EV ownership.
There are always bad cars made . The recall on ICEs are common and part of owning one. Same for EVs, but they are much simpler with far fewer parts and require a lot less maintenance.

They think they are the greatest experts in the world on EVs, after spending 2 minutes studying them.

 

[IBDaMann]

I feel embarrassed for the alt right posters who believe they can become an expert in anything in minutes.

I feel sorry for you operating under the assumption that nobody is already an expert in anything.
I feel sorry for you being too stupid to learn from people who know so much more than you do.

They clearly have never become an expert in anything,

I pity you, believing that you are the world's only expert in anything.

What amazes me is that you think one can become an expert in two minutes.

You were given several examples.

You may have mastered sorting of clothes in two hours, you did not become an expert.

Yes, an expert. That's one step before having mastered something.

Can you tell us all the chemistry behind clothes coloring, their reactions with each other, and their reactions with all the cleaning chemicals?

Yes, that's easy.

Of course not.

I pity you.

The problem we have is grade inflation

The problem you have is that you need to speak in the Marxist "we" to conceal the fact that you only get to speak for you, and you are a moron.

Unwilling, and unable to put in all the time to learn about all the chemistry behind clothes washing.

Let's start by you telling me what I don't know.

Somehow I doubt you have either.

A reflection of your poor judgement.

Here is a simple question: I have started using a bit of bleach to mark tee shirts I consider old, or in bad shape. In every color(I have no white tee shirts), except light steal, bleach will leave a white spot. Why does bleach not work on light steal tee shirts?

What bleach are you using? Is it "color safe" or not? Post a picture of the jug.

Everybody knows that teal dyes are more stable and less reactive, but if we're discussing the overall chemistry, I need to know the bleach component.

 

[Walt]

What bleach are you using?

Generic bleach. It has no trouble bleaching the other shirts.

 

[gfm7175]

I feel embarrassed for the alt right posters

What is "alt right"?

who believe they can become an expert in anything in minutes.

Once again, Walt chooses to be dishonest, pretending that he didn't say what he actually said, and pretending that other people made claims that they didn't actually make. Once again, I will remind the forum of what Walt ACTUALLY said:

"It takes about 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert in something. Most people will not be an expert in anything. But Mann thinks he can become an expert in a minute or two, and thinks he is an expert in everything."

Walt thinks that it takes 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert in something. Something includes sorting laundry by type. Thus, Walt thinks that it takes 10-20K hours to become an expert at sorting laundry by type. Walt also thinks that most people will not be an expert in ANYTHING (which includes sorting laundry by type).

I think that Walt should speak for himself re: this matter, because I happen to be an expert at sorting laundry by type, and became an expert at it within minutes. I've also witnessed many other people display their expertise in sorting laundry by type. Just because Walt can't become an expert within 10,000 hours doesn't mean that other people can't become experts within hours (or even minutes).

They clearly have never become an expert in anything, nor even come close, nor even met someone who came close.

Incorrect. See above.

I stand by that.

So IOW you're doubling down on your ridiculously stupid statement that I've already refuted. Got it.

What amazes me is that you think one can become an expert in two minutes.

Multiple posters have already accurately described how to do so. Just because you can't manage to do so doesn't mean that other people also can't.

You may have mastered sorting of clothes in two hours, you did not become an expert.

What do you think "mastered" means? Just curious...

Can you tell us all the chemistry behind clothes coloring, their reactions with each other, and their reactions with all the cleaning chemicals?

Irrelevant. Chemistry (et al) is not sorting clothes by type, which is not sorting laundry by type. Stick to the discussion at hand.

Of course not.

Speak for yourself.

The problem we have is grade inflation, and knowledge inflation, to the point that anyone who separates whites from colors thinks he deserves a Nobel Prize in Chemistry as an expert.

Usage of Marxist 'we'.
Usage of buzzwords.
Usage of bogus position assignments.

No valid argumentation presented.

Unwilling, and unable to put in all the time to learn about all the chemistry behind clothes washing.

Continued irrelevancy.

Somehow I doubt you have either.

Speak for yourself.

Here is a simple question: I have started using a bit of bleach to mark tee shirts I consider old, or in bad shape. In every color(I have no white tee shirts), except light steal, bleach will leave a white spot. Why does bleach not work on light steal tee shirts?

Irrelevant question. Stick to the discussion at hand, which is becoming an expert at sorting laundry by type.

I world renowned expert on clothes sorting would have no problem answering that question.

Your question is irrelevant to clothes sorting (or laundry sorting, which is the topic at hand). An expert in clothes sorting knows how to sort old/bad shape clothing from new/good shape clothing without the use of bleach. Such ability to sort clothing has nothing to do with bleach usage.

 

[Walt]

Once again, Walt chooses to be dishonest, pretending that he didn't say what he actually said, and pretending that other people made claims that they didn't actually make. Once again, I will remind the forum of what Walt ACTUALLY said:

"It takes about 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert in something. Most people will not be an expert in anything. But Mann thinks he can become an expert in a minute or two, and thinks he is an expert in everything."

I have never claimed I did not say that. In fact, I say that again. It takes between 10,000 and 20,000 to become an expert at any field. You seem to have exaggerated some simple ability to do something with being an expert.

It really is a sign of the times. Everyone has to be told they are special, and an expert in anything they want to be. If you tell them they are not a world renowned expert, they start crying out of control, and saying how mean you are.

I am not an expert on being an expert, but I know a thing or two about it. One of my side jobs is hiring real experts, so I can tell you that it really does take between 10,000 and 20,000 hours to become a real expert.

Just because Walt can't become an expert within 10,000 hours doesn't mean that other people can't become experts within hours (or even minutes).

In the grown up world, not everyone can be an expert in everything. In fact, most people will never be an expert in anything. You cannot be an expert in anything in a few minutes.

Irrelevant. Chemistry (et al) is not sorting clothes by type, which is not sorting laundry by type. Stick to the discussion at hand.

We sort clothing because of different cleaning effects on different colors and types of materials. It is all based on biochemistry, one of the most complex forms of chemistry. If you want to be an expert in what types of clothes to be separated, with the ability to extend human knowledge on the subject, you need to have a very good understanding of the biochemistry behind it all.

Remember, being an expert means that you are not just doing what other people have taught you, but coming up with new solutions to new problems. You understand the process so well, that you have some ability to predict new outcomes, and to understand new outcomes. In this case, that involves an in-depth understanding of biochemistry.

Multiple posters have already accurately described how to do so.

Picture this, you are called as an expert witness in a court case. When the lawyers question you to make sure you are an expert, you say you spent 2 minutes studying the subject. I think the only thing that might prevent you from being sent to jail for contempt of court would be your obvious insanity.

What do you think "mastered" means? Just curious...

To master a subject, means you can do it competently. To be an expert means you have an understanding of the internal workings of a subject well beyond just mastering it, and can and do extend human knowledge on it.

You clearly have no knowledge of the biochemistry behind clothes sorting, and I have to wonder if you have even mastered clothes sorting.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing has been made by fiat, not even the Fiat. All countries regulate automobiles and have from the beginning. We have safety standards in manufacturing and in cars. Of course, the truth is the opposite of your claim. https://windpact.com/us-car-regulat...s process,differ based on geographic location.

Regulations do not manufacture cars, Sock.

 

[Into the Night]

I feel embarrassed for the alt right posters who believe they can become an expert in anything in minutes.

Apparently you never became an expert at folding clothes.

They clearly have never become an expert in anything, nor even come close, nor even met someone who came close.

You're attempt at 'expert' worship isn't working, Sock.

I stand by that. What amazes me is that you think one can become an expert in two minutes.

They can, for some things. Apparently it's beyond you.

You may have mastered sorting of clothes in two hours, you did not become an expert.

How do you know? Have you ever seen him sort clothes?

Can you tell us all the chemistry behind clothes coloring,

There is no chemistry in sorting clothes.

their reactions with each other,

There are no reactions when sorting clothes.

and their reactions with all the cleaning chemicals?

There are no chemicals when sorting clothes.

Of course not.

Of course not about what? Your pivot fallacy isn't working, Sock.

The problem we have is grade inflation, and knowledge inflation, to the point that anyone who separates whites from colors thinks he deserves a Nobel Prize in Chemistry as an expert.

There is no chemistry when sorting clothes.

Unwilling, and unable to put in all the time to learn about all the chemistry behind clothes washing. Somehow I doubt you have either.

There is no chemistry when sorting clothes. Washing isn't sorting. Redefinition fallacy.

Here is a simple question: I have started using a bit of bleach to mark tee shirts I consider old, or in bad shape. In every color(I have no white tee shirts), except light steal, bleach will leave a white spot. Why does bleach not work on light steal tee shirts?

Chemistry isn't anecdotes. Being an expert isn't anecdotes either. Attempted proof by contrivance.

I world renowned expert on clothes sorting would have no problem answering that question.

Okay, let's discuss the actions of a solution of sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) on various dyes encountered in laundry.

Most dyes are amines. These compounds are based on variations from ammonia, especially ammonia acting on substances like coal tar or mineral oils. These substances form nonvalent hydrogen bonds with nitrogen. Bleach, or sodium hypochlorite in the presence of water forms HOCl or hypochlorous acid. This is what kills bacteria and destroys viruses, and whitens clothes by breaking down the dyes in them in an oxy-reduction reaction. White undyed clothes appear whiter. Any clothes with dyes in them will be faded due to the losing some of their dye. The chemical also reacts with oils and related stains by the same oxy-reduction reaction, removing the stain.

There are bleaches that are color-safe. These oxidizers don't break down the amine structure so much, but they DO react with oils and fats, which many stains are made of. Some dyes have an oil base, though, so it's always a good idea to test an unknown article for an adverse reaction (by exposing a discrete corner of the fabric to the color-safe bleach and waiting a few minutes).

My expertise in chemistry is mostly in pyrochemistry, electrochemistry, and various industrial processes, but I know enough about how bleach works. Incidentally, chlorine or bleach is used in water recycling, wastewater, and freshwater treatment systems as well. There, is used to kill any bacteria or destroy viruses in the water, but also to extract out useless salts in some industrial systems to prepare the water for the next cycle. A Li-ion battery recycling plant uses a water treatment system based on this to recycle the water they use.

 

[Into the Night]

They hate electric cars and have never been in one.

I don't need to be in one. I don't hate them, but they have too many problems.

They have no real-life knowledge or experience

But I do.

I see how EV owners are constantly worrying about their next charge, how much time they waste sitting in the car on their phones passing the time while they charge, the lines at charging stations, the cost imposed on property owners by government mandates to install them, the high cost of EVs despite the heavy subsidies for them, their weight problem, their maneuverability problems because of it, their inability to tow or limited towing capability of them, their limited range, the dangerous reactions of Li-ion batteries and what causes them, the need for specialized shops to do ANY maintenance on the car, the higher insurance rates due to fire hazard and cost of the vehicle and it's battery, the taxes they will soon face to pay for the roads gasoline cars pay for through gasoline taxes, the myopic effect of not understanding the energy wasted by driving an EV compared to simply burning gasoline for motive power (using half the energy), the myopic affect if not considering the CO2 generated by power plants to charge your car, and your continued denial of the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law and of mathematics.

Gasoline cars are cheap, powerful, efficient, and can be easily maintained using fairly common tools right at your own home. FADEC engines are more reliable than EVs and see a lot fewer recalls on them compared to EVs.

I'll take the gasoline car. Yes...for commuting, for towing, for road trips, etc. It really is the best all around solution to all the needs I have for a car. I don't need to charge it up each night. I don't need to wait for charging stations. I don't need to use a special shop for maintaining it. It's cheaper than an EV (including the gasoline vs electricity used!!).

I see how less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. I see the EV market crashing yet again. There is a reason for all of this.

so they scour the internet looking for something, anything at all that says EVs are bad.

You are describing yourself about gasoline cars again. Most of what you find is outright lies being resuscitated over and over again. Most from the Church of Green or the Church of Global Warming.

owners love them.

A fair number don't. They are abandoning their EV in favor of gasoline cars. Most don't want to buy into the EV nightmare in the first place.

There are always bad cars made.

So?

The recall on ICEs are common and part of owning one. Same for EVs, but they are much simpler with far fewer parts and require a lot less maintenance.

There are far more recalls on EVs. You are AGAIN forgetting that those fewer parts are MUCH more expensive to replace or maintain. Indeed, the whole car is much more expensive to purchase, to maintain, to insure, and to travel (including the charging stations and the cost to install them and run them).