I'm a fun-loving old man. You can't deal with my code of honor.
The Silurian hypothesis
- Thread starter Dutch Uncle
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Dutch Uncle
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Scroll up, Terry. What if, unlike homo sapiens, they lived in harmony with nature using manipulation of life forms for their own ends.
The thought experiment is to answer the question "How do we detect an alien civilization?" The second question was "How do we know we're the first civilization on the planet?"
Dutch Uncle
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Then why does my opinion matter to you?
We've been posting to each other for 3.5 years and you grew on me like a fungus.
Dutch Uncle
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I knew you couldn't quit me, CO/goat.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
If they proceeded to even hunter gatherers, there'd be evidence. Things like stone and wood tools, organized structures, and evidence of mass hunting techniques for example.
Dutch Uncle
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You're locked into human-style tech. Your theory is that all alien species will be just like us. I disagree.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
At the simplest, what alternatives are there? For any species to move forward technologically, they have to be able to create better shelter, energy, and tools than nature provides. If they don't then they aren't doing anything technologically.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Agreed, but you keep thinking in terms of manufacturing tools when another option is growing tools, growing biological shelter and ships.
Again, the point of the Silurian Hypothesis is to think outside the box in a search for other civilizations be they extraterrestrial or millions of years ago on Earth.
So far we've spent decades looking for radio signals and tool-making civilizations without result. What are we missing? That's the purpose of the Silurian Hypothesis.
The authors of the linked article are skeptical as well, deeply so, they say. Interesting idea just the same.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
It's a thought experiment about how to identify non-human civilizations. We've been looking for other signs of life in the Universe for a few hundred years now with the advent of the Space Age intensifying this search for the past 60+ years.
So far, nuthin'. What are we missing? That's the objective of the Silurian Hypothesis thought experiment.
Previously @T. A. Gardner brought looking for metal or stone tools, fabricated shelters, etc. That's a standard assumption that alien species or Earth species millions of years ago would also be tool makers like humans. Since we have found anything like that, does that mean they don't exist or that we're missing something?
I think it's just a frame for a thought experiment. Obviously no one really thinks mammals existed in the Silurian let alone primates.
The point really is: how will the Anthropocene show up in the geologic record in the ridiculously distant future when humans no longer exist.
It's a good question. The fossil record is a good recorder but it has the potential of HUUUUUUGE gaps in our knowledge.
I don't read your posts Perry, except when you are writing and/or screaming at me. The use of carbon isotopes in climate science is widely understood by anyone who has studiously followed science journalism in the last two decades.
Have you abandoned your Dave 63 sock this soon?
Daylight63
Verified User
It would be interesting to know how our time on the planet will be preserved in the rock record. Initially I was thinking this was some idea that humans existed millions of years before they began. Thanks for the clarification.
This also leads to some really interesting stuff closer to home in terms of time. We wonder what our civilization will look like in the rock record but it's also interesting to think what our CURRENT society will look like in the ancient historical record. Imagine a distant future a couple thousand years ahead. Today we dig up the Babylonians and we try to figure out the writings with a lot of pain and effort. In the distant future they will be able to dig up our writings and images and know a lot about our thoughts and feelings. Then suddenly the record turns into nothing but a bunch of glass plates and little metal fiddly bits. We've moved our collective "minds" over to digital virtual forms that cannot possibly exist after the software necessary to process them is gone.
I think this is what they mean by a "Digital Dark Age" (there was a book written about it a few years back).
There's going to be evidence but it is not guaranteed that it will ever be found. And a lot of the evidence will be lost to attrition. That's the limitation on the fossil record. It selectively preserves a small sample of what was actually there.
But you are right, if we actually look closely we might be able to find ourselves but unless we as a species exist for a couple hundred million more years the chances of us being found will be less and less and less and less.
Dutch Uncle
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There's ample evidence about human civilizations and tribes dating back tens of thousands of years. Homo sapiens sapiens has been around for at least 300,000 years.
In other threads, @Cypress and myself have discussed the search for extraterrestrial life and, according to Fermi's Paradox, if advanced lifeforms are ubiquitous in the galaxy, then where are they?
Add to this, I favor the Red Queen Hypothesis which, among other things, postulates that in the never-ending battle for survival between predator and prey, that intelligent life is inevitable. It just needs time. Our solar system is in a relative backwater of our galaxy. Star systems closer to the core would be millions of year older. Again, Fermi's Paradox; where are these advanced civilizations and how would we detect their existence?
An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens
Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our species
www.smithsonianmag.com
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Even so, there would be evidence of that. Organized agricultural practices, remnants of the tools, structures, and such. After all, these would have to be durable enough to be used for prolonged periods.
It is almost an impossible scenario, I won't say impossible, but very close to it. For any civilization, they would need to be able to harness and control an energy source. For example, if you have a species that lives in water, it would have a very limited choice of energy sources that would be difficult to harness and control. It can't use electricity or fire for example.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
What we don't know is how intelligent evolves. We could very likely be replaced by the very technology we're inventing. We also don't know enough about life on other planets of any sort yet. It's like being one of the blindmen trying to describe an elephant.There's ample evidence about human civilizations and tribes dating back tens of thousands of years. Homo sapiens sapiens has been around for at least 300,000 years.
In other threads, @Cypress and myself have discussed the search for extraterrestrial life and, according to Fermi's Paradox, if advanced lifeforms are ubiquitous in the galaxy, then where are they?
Add to this, I favor the Red Queen Hypothesis which, among other things, postulates that in the never-ending battle for survival between predator and prey, that intelligent life is inevitable. It just needs time. Our solar system is in a relative backwater of our galaxy. Star systems closer to the core would be millions of year older. Again, Fermi's Paradox; where are these advanced civilizations and how would we detect their existence?
An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens
Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our species