A discussion on free trade

Did you know that Thomas Jefferson that freedom from corporatiions was a basic human right?

I don't think the right questions are being asked. Is it "free trade" that's the problem or is it pure capitalism?

The chinese have become capitalists and now own a large chunk of America. The Founders must be rolling over in their graves. We were supposed to be smarter than that.

Free trade is capitalism in its purest form and there is no patriotism in capitalism. We've taught the world to be capitalist but we didn't teach ourselves what to do when the rest of the world caught up. Why expect "patriotism" from the Walmart shopper in a capitalist society? That makes no sense. The Walmart shopper is a capitalist.

Tariffs used to work very well, but they won't work anymore in their past forms because there is nothing the world needs from us .. except weapons of mass destruction. We damn near have a lock on that.

I know this is going to sound all liberal, but free trade and economic policy also work better when your customers like you, because economic policy can be an alliance but it can also be a weapon. While there's worry about the yuan, there's also real concern about the euro. What happens when the dollar is no longer the international standard of currency which pretty much all it's based on now?

Free trade is a reality that isn't going away, especially now that America is a plutocracy. Lobbyists have more say in government than you do.

America will have to learn how to exist in a changing and more sophisticated world, and a world that is not dependent on us. Some of the answers will be found in varying forms of collectivism .. that is if Americans can ever wrest control of our government away from the plutocrats .. and that's a BIG if.

If Americans don't get smarter and become more open to ideas of change and new ways of thinking, then we will continue the decline we're on. In 10 years there may not be an American auto company anymore.
 
Free Trade has no doubt lowered prices and increased our standard of living in the meantime. To even have an argument against free trade first someone needs a theory to discredit comparitive advantage. Sure we may no longer make cars but our comparitive advantage may be in computers and medicine.
 
Being ignorant of free trade advantages is not a new way of thinking bac. It's very very old.

Also, the world NEVER "needed" anything from us. They could be poorer without trade before. And they can close trade and be poorer again. But they will not likely do that because they are not stupid.

While there's worry about the yuan, there's also real concern about the euro. What happens when the dollar is no longer the international standard of currency which pretty much all it's based on now?
Click to expand...

Our products/services become more attractive for export their products/services become less attractive for import and the trade imbalance that you all whine about comes down. What's the problem?
 
Obfuscate said:
Free Trade has no doubt lowered prices and increased our standard of living in the meantime. To even have an argument against free trade first someone needs a theory to discredit comparitive advantage. Sure we may no longer make cars but our comparitive advantage may be in computers and medicine.
Click to expand...

there are strategic and common sense reasons to not allow enemy nations to manufacture sensitive arms or technology. Just as there is a value to keeping some industries domestically, to ensure ones indepenance and self sufficiency.

It is foolish also to put a country's laborers out of work with slave labor abroad. We should limit our partners to those who share our aversion to slave labor and totalitarianism. Encouraging totalitarian fascism abroad is a bad idea.
 
AssHatZombie said:
there are strategic and common sense reasons to not allow enemy nations to manufacture sensitive arms or technology. Just as there is a value to keeping some industries domestically, to ensure ones indepenance and self sufficiency.

It is foolish also to put a country's laborers out of work with slave labor abroad. We should limit our partners to those who share our aversion to slave labor and totalitarianism. Encouraging totalitarian fascism abroad is a bad idea.
Click to expand...

There is no real market for military weapons outside of governments. If you want to increase the cost to the consumer there with protectionist policies, go ahead. Has nothing to with the IMPROTANT consumer markets.

The "slave labor" charge is mostly hyperbolic emotional language and meaningless propaganda.

Fascism and totalitarianism usually come with protectionist regimes. I do't understand how you believe that is encouraged by trade? Sounds like more hyperbolic emotional language.
 
RStringfield said:
There is no real market for military weapons outside of governments. If you want to increase the cost to the consumer there with protectionist policies, go ahead. Has nothing to with the IMPROTANT consumer markets.

The "slave labor" charge is mostly hyperbolic emotional language and meaningless propaganda.

Fascism and totalitarianism usually come with protectionist regimes. I do't understand how you believe that is encouraged by trade? Sounds like more hyperbolic emotional language.
Click to expand...

But in the nwo, the fascist totalitarianism is planned to be INTERNATIONALIST in flavor.


Re slave labor, you're just ignorant or in denial. It's not rhetoric, it's real. Do you know the difference?


laogai



http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/07/2laogai.cfm
Laogai, which translates from Mandarin to mean "reform through labor," is the Chinese system of labor prison factories, detention centers, and re-education camps. Mao Zedong created the system in the early 1950s, modeling it after the Soviet Gulag, as a way to punish and reform criminals in a manner useful to the state, producing thought reform and economic gain. The Laogai system is still in place today and continues to deprive individuals of basic human rights. An individual's mere association with groups unpopular with the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) government can result in the individual being sent to a reform institution in the Laogai system, through a process that deprives the person of due process rights. Once inside the Laogai, prisoners are subject to cruel and degrading treatment and oftentimes torture. These human rights abuses violate both Chinese and international human rights norms.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Diuretic said:
That makes sense, I mean protecting domestic food sources. I was listening to a radio report about food issues in China and one of our farmer reps was on about how we could export food to the Chinese and make a bundle. I thought then, well there's only 21m of us and it's a big country (albeit much of it is desert) we could probably do that - but not at the expense of our own domestic food needs.

I'm thinking maybe it's time for a new economic model.
Click to expand...

Farm subsides are to offset the subsidies in other nations we freely trade with...
 
Say what.................

Diuretic said:
If you subsidise your farmers, as the US does, is that still free trade? Or is it protectionism?
Click to expand...

The EU as well as China do exactly this...along with all their other products...does Australia also fall in this category?...my bet would be yes!
 
RStringfield said:
Trade does not put anyone out of work, more than temporarily. It creates more jobs by increasing efficiency.
Click to expand...

ya China's exploding with double digit GDP growth for the past ten years.

Problem is we are not, and we are cedeing ground, or possibly our place in the world, instead of the insults back and forth, lets get to laying out the pros and cons of such a policy or something...
 
Obfuscate said:
Free Trade has no doubt lowered prices and increased our standard of living in the meantime. To even have an argument against free trade first someone needs a theory to discredit comparitive advantage. Sure we may no longer make cars but our comparitive advantage may be in computers and medicine.
Click to expand...

the sort term gains come at what long term costs?
 
Ever see blackhawk down, nearly everyone of them were armed with AK-47's, it's one of the most widely distributed black market weapon on Earth.
 
And with all that said, no one supporting (unfettered free trade with currency manipulators) really tried to engage and defend their arguments, I heard a lot of insults, but not much in substantive reason.

hummmmmm....
 
Obfuscate said:
Free Trade has no doubt lowered prices and increased our standard of living in the meantime. To even have an argument against free trade first someone needs a theory to discredit comparitive advantage. Sure we may no longer make cars but our comparitive advantage may be in computers and medicine.
Click to expand...

I wasn't arguing against free trade, I'm saying that pure capitalism is the real argument.
 
WRL said:
the sort term gains come at what long term costs?
Click to expand...


None, long term gains and short term gains. China was a controlled economy and it's citizens some of the poorest. Then they promoted free trade and many other economic changes and now the citizens are much better off. Of course thier GDP will grow fast as they are coming from a communist economic plans to more free market. Our GDP is growing you said right? Until someone can give disprove comparitive advantage I'm not going to be concerned when other countries citizens are getting out of poverty at a fast pace. We may have a concern about our education system but that's another topic.
 
They are a mixed economy. They have adopted a few capitalist principles, enough to serve them. And now they are manipulating the 'free trade' agreements we have with them to exploit their interests at the sake of US interests. Cheep crap at wall-mart is no substitute for a vibrant US manufacturing sector.

So once again, why not tariff them to cover our loss to their curency manipulation, and worker policy.
 
RStringfield said:
Being ignorant of free trade advantages is not a new way of thinking bac. It's very very old.
Click to expand...

Quite often those who think themselves most versed on what free trade is often don't know themselves. They celebrate Goldwater, the most failed presidential candidate in modern history.

Also, the world NEVER "needed" anything from us. They could be poorer without trade before. And they can close trade and be poorer again. But they will not likely do that because they are not stupid.
Click to expand...

Untrue, and US products from cars to refrigerators flowed all over the world. If they close trade with us that does not necessaryly mean they will be poorer. We need the world more than it needs us.

Our products/services become more attractive for export their products/services become less attractive for import and the trade imbalance that you all whine about comes down. What's the problem?
Click to expand...

Feel free to believe that if you wish .. but life in America will become drastically different.

Iran, Venezuela and Russia already demand payment for oil in euros and the Chinese are next in line to demand payment in euros. If the rest of the world follows suit, the dollar has lost its position as the world standard and it follows the path of the british pound.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top