Advice for my fellow liberals and progressives.

you wind up alienating the people you need to convince. As soon as they see effort as being focused on helping racial minorities, they'll want no part of it:



From your post


Those are the thoughts of racists not decent people


Fuck them


To the sewers with their evil asses


If they think stupid they are stupid
 
evince said:
I saw two people doing a drug deal


I stopped it

And the guy buying tried to scare me because he was a great big guy and I was a middle aged chick



He tried to spit in my face


I dodged it


And spit in his face



I stood down a man twice my size because I was willing to treat him like I would have treated a sixteen year

skinny white girl



You hate me for that


Guess what


I sent him running and afraid to come back in my hood



The drug dealer never used my hood again


Can you guess why?



You think I should have run in fear because he was A very large black man?



He was a person to me


I treated him as such you stupid fucking racist scum
Click to expand...
That's yet another version of that story...;) (A baker's dozen at least...lol)
 
SmarterthanYou said:
let me introduce you to evince.............
Click to expand...

Yet, see this very thread. Evince and I disagree on a policy about race (I'm arguing some racists can be reached if we frame policies in non-racial terms, Evince says racists cannot be reached). Yet Evince hasn't called me a racist, that I know of.
 
evince said:
you wind up alienating the people you need to convince. As soon as they see effort as being focused on helping racial minorities, they'll want no part of it:



From your post


Those are the thoughts of racists not decent people


Fuck them


To the sewers with their evil asses


If they think stupid they are stupid
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing their merits as people. I'm arguing the math. To get things done we need a majority -- a super-majority, really, once you consider the filibuster, gerrymandering, and disproportionate representation for small-state residents. If you give up on anyone whose votes can be alienated if you frame a policy in racial terms, there aren't going to be a lot of policies where you have enough support to get stuff done. I'm saying that where there can be common cause (so long as race is kept out of it), we'd be wise to pursue it. If the alternative is patting ourselves on the back for staying free of entanglements with racists, but we get nothing done, that's going to be cold comfort.
 
We dont need the racists


We have the numbers to win



We need those existing votes to be counted
 
evince said:
But in your OP you wanted to appeal to people who are racists
Click to expand...

Yes. What percentage of Americans do you think are racists? I think the answer varies depending on how exactly you define it, from maybe 30% on up to nearly 100%. But if we define it to include any white person who could react more negatively to a policy if he thought it disproportionately benefited people of color, rather than benefiting all equally, I expect racists would make up more than 50% of the population. And that's a problem if you're trying to get anything done in a basically democratic system. You need some of those votes. I'm talking about how best to get them. Yes, that means appealing to racists. But if the alternative is basically letting the racists run the country into the ground, I'll take it.
 
Racists will never vote for American Democracy


Shame them


Shame is all they deserve


They are evil and stupid


Fuck them
 
evince said:
We dont need the racists


We have the numbers to win



We need those existing votes to be counted
Click to expand...

Even that brings up my point, though. Why do liberals and progressives lose so many elections? A lot of it has to do with structural factors, like their concentration in cities making gerrymandering easier, and their tendency to live in larger states (which means less weight in the Senate and Electoral College). Some is about various anti-democratic efforts to make voting harder (e.g., state election official engineering long lines in minority voting districts, to deter turnout). But whatever the cause, fixing it takes more than just complaining about it. It takes building a sufficiently large coalition in favor of fixing it. And that's going to be more achievable if we frame the problems in race-neutral terms, rather than making the racists fret that this is about taking power away from white people and giving it to people of color.
 
“As soon as they see effort as being focused on helping racial minorities, they'll want no part of it:”



This is a unsaveable racist



We don’t need evil people
 
evince said:
Racists will never vote for American Democracy


Shame them


Shame is all they deserve


They are evil and stupid


Fuck them
Click to expand...

That may feel good, but does it accomplish anything? I don't care about their feelings, but I do care about their votes. If some of those votes were, in fact, available for some of our ideas, but we drive them away we gleeful shaming, that's not a good thing, if it turns out we needed those votes.
 
Mina said:
Even that brings up my point, though. Why do liberals and progressives lose so many elections? A lot of it has to do with structural factors, like their concentration in cities making gerrymandering easier, and their tendency to live in larger states (which means less weight in the Senate and Electoral College). Some is about various anti-democratic efforts to make voting harder (e.g., state election official engineering long lines in minority voting districts, to deter turnout). But whatever the cause, fixing it takes more than just complaining about it. It takes building a sufficiently large coalition in favor of fixing it. And that's going to be more achievable if we frame the problems in race-neutral terms, rather than making the racists fret that this is about taking power away from white people and giving it to people of color.
Click to expand...

It’s called DECADES of Republican cheating in elections


That’s exactly why they have to constantly increase their cheating
 
Mina said:
That may feel good, but does it accomplish anything? I don't care about their feelings, but I do care about their votes. If some of those votes were, in fact, available for some of our ideas, but we drive them away we gleeful shaming, that's not a good thing, if it turns out we needed those votes.
Click to expand...

They are not born racists


They choose it


If it’s shameful enough they won’t choose to be racists


Massive shame


The putin tactic over the world was to make it more acceptable to harbor racist ideas

We need to make them the outcasts they should be
 
evince said:
It’s called DECADES of Republican cheating in elections


That’s exactly why they have to constantly increase their cheating
Click to expand...

No doubt. Yet they do lose pretty regularly, despite all that. When we can get enough of a majority together, the cheating doesn't matter. I'm talking about ideas that will make it easier to get that kind of supermajority.
 
Mina said:
No doubt. Yet they do lose pretty regularly, despite all that. When we can get enough of a majority together, the cheating doesn't matter. I'm talking about ideas that will make it easier to get that kind of supermajority.
Click to expand...

We have the vast majority


We need to march out in mass


We need the liberal edge to STOP beating up anyone they don’t think is liberal enough


We need to all come together and help get everyone to vote together
 
evince said:
We have the vast majority


We need to march out in mass


We need the liberal edge to STOP beating up anyone they don’t think is liberal enough


We need to all come together and help get everyone to vote together
Click to expand...

I'm all for ending the liberal circular firing squad, which in recent years has taken the form of a kind of purity inquisition. But that's a separate issue. Even if we can get all the liberals on board, I'm not clear we have the numbers to get stuff done without bringing in at least some of the kinds of white folks who pull right any time they hear race in the mix.
 
They will stab us in the back



Appeal to the liberal edge to stop helping republicans by trashing other Democrats


Fight the election cheating in every state


We have the numbers


We don’t need racists


Those willing to change will have to change themselves


We can’t change them


They will just destroy us from within
 
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