Air Traffic Controllers Warned US Army Helicopter Ahead Of Crash

[Into the Night]

I dont care what your instructions from HQ are, if people die like this on your watch after you let someone leave early for any reason other than medical emergency then you should hang.

If you dont think you can deal with the consequences of telling the controller that they must finish their shift then you need to quit.

A controller cannot leave the scope until relieved. See JO 7110.65, which specifically concerns this as well. If they have to pee their pants, so be it.

 

[Into the Night]

You are being unreasonable.

Air traffic control is governed by multiple regulations, including ICAO, CFR Part 61 and 91, and JO-7110.65. ALL air traffic control operators MUST conform to these regulations.

 

[Into the Night]

They did provide the appropriate response.

WRONG. ATC failed to follow proper procedure.

The helicopter pilot requested visual separation

The helicopter called ATC for a class B transit clearance, which was issued by ATC.
ATC is ALSO responsible for separation.

and confirmed they saw the flight.

Not a traffic advisory or a traffic warning advisory. ATC failed to follow correct procedure.

There was literally nothing ATC could have done.

BULLSHIT! ATC is REQUIRED to use correct procedure, which likely would've prevented this mid-air.

She clearly fucked up, yes, by requesting visual separation and claiming she saIt w the flight. Not ATC's failure here

It IS a failure of ATC. They failed to follow correct procedure.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Air Traffic Controllers Warned US Army Helicopter Ahead Of Crash: Audio

www.barrons.com

So who was the pilot of the helicopter that ignored the warning?



The helicopter was going on a straight line towards the plane....why?


A clear night the plane had bright lights flashing and the tower warned the helicopter and that warning was ignored...why?

This is not correct.

Captain Rebecca Lobach was a seasoned pilot. The Flight Recorder shows that the Air Traffic Controllers put the helicopter directly in the path of the incoming jet.

There is nothing to indicate Capt. Lobach did anything wrong. This was a screw up by the ATC.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I notice you didn't address the lie.

There was no lie. You just don't like your party being the butt of the joke.

Problem is, your party is a joke.

 

[IBDaMann]

thanks. and you don't think that the verbal instruction to follow BEHIND the aircraft would be considered within that policy???

Absolutely not, especially when the communication is entirely verbal. There is always inherent ambiguity and uncertainty as to whether the pilot and the tower actually understand each other, and whether they are even talking about the same thing. In this case, it seems fairly certain that they did not. The helicopter pilot was almost certainly presuming the tower was talking about the next plane back in the queue; she was seemingly oblivious to the imminent collision ... and flew right into it.

Also, the policy is clear. The purpose of the air traffic control system is to prevent collisions. The controller's top priority is control and to organize traffic to prevent collisions and to advise of imminent collisions, recommending course corrections in such cases.

Everything else is secondary.

 

[IBDaMann]

was there time to do such a thing?

There was time to do it when there was time to do it. By the time it was too late, it was too late. The controller was asleep at the wheel. The audio tapes and the radar tracks show that they were on a collision course with plenty of time to notify the helicopter pilot and instruct to change altitude (or to just stop and hover). Yes, there was time ... until there wasn't.

what was the amount of time that passed between the copter being told to follow behind the jet and the collision?

I don't have the video up at the moment. I believe the altitude was omitted.

 

[IBDaMann]

not sure where you believe that the tower has ultimate power to fly the aircraft itself.

I don't know where you get the idea that I somehow believe that the tower flies any aircraft. The tower is responsible for preventing collisions within its area of control. I'm not sure where you believe that pilots somehow have the ultimate control of what other pilots do.

...............the controller can give every instruction possible,

Subjunctive fallacy. The tower did not give the required instructions and notifications. The tower failed in its responsibility to follow established procedures and to prevent collisions.

but if the pilot is ignoring it

The proper commands have to be issued and ignored before anyone can say that the pilot ignored the proper commands.

... it's not the controllers fault.

It's absolutely the controller's fault. He didn't do his job. He didn't issue the proper instructions and notifications. He didn't prevent the collision in his area of control.

 

[EdwinA]

A corporation is not fascism. Redefinition fallacy.

Another fallacy fallacy. Corporations buy themselves protection from competition and from paying labor what they're worth.

A corporation is not fascism. Obviously you know nothing about price discovery.

Obviously you think I'm impressed with ideological rubbish. I'm not.

Every nation has a long history of crime and poverty. Unions are thuggery.

So?

Most items at Walmart are domestically produced. International trade is not fascism. Redefinition fallacy.

Another fallacy fallacy.

Labor is not racketeering. Walmart is not a monopoly. Monopolies are inherently unstable in the market. It won't be long before they get out maneuvered by smaller startups. Do you know what a 'techocrat' is??

please feel free to make up strawmen and beat on them. Who said 'labor' is racketeering? Corporations do the racketeering, which is why off-shoring is so profitable for them, at least until disposable incomes are reduced to nothing.

They didn't. Trump was elected President. Vance was elected Vice-President. The Supreme Court is primarily conservative. Both the House and the Senate have Republican majorities. Most of the governors in the United States are not republicans. Most State legislatures in the United States are not Republican controlled.

And Republicans will as always wrestle defeat from victory; Trump won't be running in 2028.

The Left lost, dude, more than at any other time in history!

Not really; we've already seen REpublicans voting with Democrats, and will again. They can be bought like any other pol.

Many small businesses ARE corporations. I'm one of them!

Pointless raving.

I don't screw over my workers. They are paid market rates for what they do and they do their job quite well. I don't tolerate slackoffs.

lol anecdotal stories
are fun.

EVERY business is in competition. Even monopolies!

Not really; they just change majority ownership.

So much parsing, so much anecdotal assertion, so much fantasy.

 

[IBDaMann]

Trump never blamed the crash on DEI.

Correct. Trump blamed Biden for allowing standards to be lowered. Trump plans on returning standards to their higher levels.

*I* blame DEI. Thank you for pointing out that I had blurred those lines.

 

[IBDaMann]

The fault appears to be BOTH. Of course, the NTSB investigation will enlighten what happened. The helicopter was VFR and should've changed course already.

My take is that there was confusion, as is always possible in any airspace. The tower is responsible for directing traffic and eliminating confusion. The tower is responsible for preventing collisions. Pilots are, of course, also responsible for avoiding collisions, but Captain Rebecca Lobach was not flying erratically or outside any regulations. The collision was caused because of a coordination issue and a miscommunication, all within the control tower's purview.

Once Captain Rebecca Lobach began assuming that the tower was talking about the plane further back in the queue, naturally her "visual" was paying full attention to the wrong plane, and as such, she was doing everything correctly for what she perceived. If the tower had mentioned to her that she was on a collision course, I think that would certainly have caused her to change her focus to look around again. If the tower had told her to lower her altitude IMMEDIATELY or it's game over, I think that would have certainly caused her to at least change course.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Absolutely not, especially when the communication is entirely verbal. There is always inherent ambiguity and uncertainty as to whether the pilot and the tower actually understand each other, and whether they are even talking about the same thing. In this case, it seems fairly certain that they did not. The helicopter pilot was almost certainly presuming the tower was talking about the next plane back in the queue; she was seemingly oblivious to the imminent collision ... and flew right into it.

Also, the policy is clear. The purpose of the air traffic control system is to prevent collisions. The controller's top priority is control and to organize traffic to prevent collisions and to advise of imminent collisions, recommending course corrections in such cases.

Everything else is secondary.

It is my opinion that you're misconstruing the wording and taking it all too literal. I have been a tower controller and everything that i've heard and seen indicates that this is all upon the helicopter pilot and that the tower controller did everything correct.

 

[IBDaMann]

Oddly enough, that's partially true. Flights can and do occur without any ATC at all!

Of course. Uncontrolled airspace exists, however those flying in uncontrolled airspace understand this. There isn't the same volume of traffic either. In towered space, submission to the tower is the norm, with the expectation that the tower will provide the necessary coordination, advisory and warnings.

Trump did not blame DEI for the crash.

I concede this point. I am the one who bashes on DEI hires. I have been screwed over by the double-whammy, i.e. having reduced promotion potential from decreased organizational performance due to an influx of DEI hires, and then losing out on promotions to those same DEI hires who were given both priority and lowered standards to which to adhere.

 

[IBDaMann]

It is my opinion that you're misconstruing the wording and taking it all too literal.

That's not possible. I am citing the regulation which is to be taken completely literally. It isn't merely a suggestion and no artistic interpretations are permitted.

I have been a tower controller and everything that i've heard and seen indicates that this is all upon the helicopter pilot

You have been a tower controller. You have also been a political partisan. Guess which one is at play in this case. When a supposed air traffic controller dismisses the FAA air traffic controller manual in order to blame a pilot for a collision in which the tower issued no collision warning and no course correction instruction, I know that this is a partisan speaking, not a professional air traffic controller.

and that the tower controller did everything correct.

Again, you are ignoring the egregious violations of the tower in saying that tower did "everything correct." Just say "I HATE TRUMP AND I WILL FALL ON MY SWORD FOR DEI HIRES."

Your position is absurd.

 

[IBDaMann]

Visual signal is not required if the aircraft is in radio contact with ATC, which the helicopter was.
Ch2 prevails.

I must have misread. Thank you.

 

[christiefan915]

We know that there's a shortage of air traffic controllers and we also know that many have been turned away because hiring procedure and training has changed... There's currently a class action suit Involving About a 1000 applicants and the F. A. A.... I'm patiently waiting for the investigation to be complete ... to discover what actually happened so that a tragedy like this never happens again... I understand that you don't like the president.... But he Speaks from the heart.... Without much filter Unfortunately but that is who he is... He expressed
that there was a problem...possible DEI related... and that very well may be true... we shall see...

He "expressed" that the problem was possibly DEI related less than 24 hours after it happened. His first action was to find someone to blame.

 

[Into the Night]

Absolutely not, especially when the communication is entirely verbal. There is always inherent ambiguity and uncertainty as to whether the pilot and the tower actually understand each other, and whether they are even talking about the same thing. In this case, it seems fairly certain that they did not. The helicopter pilot was almost certainly presuming the tower was talking about the next plane back in the queue; she was seemingly oblivious to the imminent collision ... and flew right into it.

Also, the policy is clear. The purpose of the air traffic control system is to prevent collisions. The controller's top priority is control and to organize traffic to prevent collisions and to advise of imminent collisions, recommending course corrections in such cases.

Everything else is secondary.

The traffic advisory wording, and the traffic conflict wording, is VERY specific for a reason. It is to prevent just EXACTLY this type of confusion.
Kudos to you for actually looking up the regulations concerning ATC and quoting the relevant references to them!

 

[Into the Night]

Another fallacy fallacy.

Random phrase. LIF. Denial of logic.

Corporations buy themselves protection from competition and from paying labor what they're worth.

Corporations don't 'buy protection' from competition. A corporation is simply a business structure. Labor is paid according to market wages, other than the price controls imposed by government (fascism). Price controls don't work. They always cause shortages.

Obviously you think I'm impressed with ideological rubbish. I'm not.

You are. You are are idealogically a socialist. Socialism doesn't work. It is based on theft.

Another fallacy fallacy.

Random phrase. LIF. Denial of logic.

please feel free to make up strawmen and beat on them.

Fallacy fallacy.

Who said 'labor' is racketeering?

You did.

Corporations do the racketeering,

Corporations is not racketeering. Redefinition fallacy.

which is why off-shoring is so profitable for them, at least until disposable incomes are reduced to nothing.

You worried about off-shoring?? Blame Clinton. Fortunately, that's finally going to come to an end under Trump.

And Republicans will as always wrestle defeat from victory;

Leftists lost, moron.

Trump won't be running in 2028.

So? That's irrelevant.

Not really; we've already seen REpublicans voting with Democrats, and will again. They can be bought like any other pol.

RINOs are just Democrats flying a false flag.

 

[Into the Night]

My take is that there was confusion, as is always possible in any airspace.

The phraseology ATC is supposed to use is to minimize exactly this type of confusion. Further, the FAA has closed the HELO4 corridor in the vicinity of DCA, possibly permanently.

The tower is responsible for directing traffic and eliminating confusion.

As you correctly pointed out, they apparently failed to do this.

The tower is responsible for preventing collisions.

...and they obviously failed to do this.

Pilots are, of course, also responsible for avoiding collisions, but Captain Rebecca Lobach was not flying erratically or outside any regulations. The collision was caused because of a coordination issue and a miscommunication, all within the control tower's purview.

True. However, since the helicopter WAS operating VFR at the time, Capt. Lobach is also responsible for failing to maintain her own navigation and separation.

Once Captain Rebecca Lobach began assuming that the tower was talking about the plane further back in the queue, naturally her "visual" was paying full attention to the wrong plane, and as such, she was doing everything correctly for what she perceived.

This should've been a red flag. If it were me, I would be inquiring to ATC the direction from my position the traffic of their concern is. In other words, I would ask them to provide a proper traffic advisory.

If the tower had mentioned to her that she was on a collision course,

They utterly failed to provide any such traffic conflict advisory (that's what it's called). This is the directive to change course, usually followed by IMMEDIATELY. If a pilot receives this, maneuver first, THEN acknowledge ATC. You are literally seconds from disaster.

 

[Into the Night]

It is my opinion that you're misconstruing the wording and taking it all too literal. I have been a tower controller and everything that i've heard and seen indicates that this is all upon the helicopter pilot and that the tower controller did everything correct.

I'll have to disbelieve you on that claim!

The regulations on the phraseology to be used and what traffic advisories is very clearly specified. ATC did NOT conduct proper operating procedure.

The tower controller did NOT follow proper operating procedure.

The helicopter pilot is also a share of blame here, since the helicopter was operating VFR at the time.