Another example of high-speed fail

[Celticguy]

You have lost all context then. I am not talking about airports.

but I was.

 

[Truth Detector]

STFU! You live in Florida now. You have no say!

 

[Into the Night]

but I was.

No, you weren't. You just decided to pivot to talking about airports and now claim that's what you were talking about all along. You were talking about high speed rail.

Now since you want to deny what you said, we are done.

 

[Celticguy]

No, you weren't. You just decided to pivot to talking about airports and now claim that's what you were talking about all along. You were talking about high speed rail.

Now since you want to deny what you said, we are done.

see #23 for context

 

[Into the Night]

see #23 for context

Contextomy fallacy. You have lost all context.

See post #98 and #99 for context.

Now, are you STILL going to try to deny your own statement?

 

[Into the Night]

Why should they if people find air travel cheaper. faster and better?

Fascism of course.

 

[Walt]

You're a dolt claiming that air travel is not profitable. Air travel is not subsidized by the government. Without Government spending, rail travel would cease to exist.

Air travel has gone back and forth between small profits and unbelievable losses. That is the reason so many airlines have declared bankruptcy in the last few decades. The FAA is a subsidy for the air traffic, as is the airports we built for them. The landing fees have never paid for the airports.

Trains on the other hand pay for not just themselves, but the tracks they are on. The high profit areas are cargo, and commuters in the Northeast.

 

[Into the Night]

Air travel has gone back and forth between small profits and unbelievable losses.

I can be a tough business, true.

That is the reason so many airlines have declared bankruptcy in the last few decades.

Also true. Other airlines, however, have been around a long while. False dichotomy fallacy.

The FAA is a subsidy for the air traffic,

No, it isn't. Air traffic is just air traffic. ATC services are paid for out of taxes to aircraft owners.

as is the airports we built for them.

Most airports were built by the government for military aircraft during WW2. Most of these airports have been converted to civilian service. They are paid for by port taxes and taxes to aircraft owners.

The landing fees have never paid for the airports.

They are not designed to.

Trains on the other hand pay for not just themselves, but the tracks they are on.

The tracks were paid for by the government for the transcontinental railroads and for all in city railroads and most regional railroads. NONE of those railroads ran at a profit. The lone exception is the Northern Pacific railroad, built entirely privately, and was the ONLY railroad running a profit (a good one at that!) until government price controls were mandated on it (effectively nationalizing it!).

There are still a few private railroads left, such as the one I worked on in Hawaii (the LK&PRR). The tracks, the rolling stock, the stations, everything...is privately owned and built.

The high profit areas are cargo, and commuters in the Northeast.

Cargo is high profit in the air too. People also commute by air.
Passenger rail service is impractical for the bulk of the country. There's just not enough demand.

Bulk freight doesn't need high speed rail.

 

[Walt]

People also commute by air.

Very, very few people commute by air. That is prohibitively expensive. Hundreds of millions commute by train.

 

[Into the Night]

Very, very few people commute by air. That is prohibitively expensive. Hundreds of millions commute by train.

You'd be surprised how many people commute by air. You are making up numbers. The entire population does not commute by train. You are also wandering off subject. This is about high speed rail, not commuter rail.

 

[katzgar]

You'd be surprised how many people commute by air. You are making up numbers. The entire population does not commute by train. You are also wandering off subject. This is about high speed rail, not commuter rail.

you cant figure out something simple like a face mask. You need to stop posting about stuff educated people know about.

 

[Walt]

You'd be surprised how many people commute by air. You are making up numbers. The entire population does not commute by train. You are also wandering off subject. This is about high speed rail, not commuter rail.

I know people who fly into work, but none commute. They will fly to a remote location, or to a place they cannot afford to live, for a week or three, and then fly out. They do not do a daily commute. Every now and then, you hear of someone flying into Manhattan on a helicopter, but is extremely rare on a daily basis.

So why don't you name some of these people who commute by air?

The vast majority of the people commute in our biggest city by rail. Outside of the USA, it is the norm to commute by rail into any major city. Europeans and Chinese commute by high speed rail by the millions. Literally hundreds of millions of people worldwide commute by rail.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I know people who fly into work, but none commute. They will fly to a remote location, or to a place they cannot afford to live, for a week or three, and then fly out. They do not do a daily commute. Every now and then, you hear of someone flying into Manhattan on a helicopter, but is extremely rare on a daily basis.

So why don't you name some of these people who commute by air?

The vast majority of the people commute in our biggest city by rail. Outside of the USA, it is the norm to commute by rail into any major city. Europeans and Chinese commute by high speed rail by the millions. Literally hundreds of millions of people worldwide commute by rail.

I know it happens in S. Cali. There are people that live in places like Bullhead City / Lake Havasu or Blythe that commute by air into LA because the cost of housing and such is so much lower that spending $30,000 or more a year on flights is cheaper than owning or renting in LA itself, or it used to be. Not sure if it's still done today but I wouldn't be surprised. If you live in Blythe for example, it's worth driving to Quartsite or Ehernburg AZ-- about 30 miles or less--to fill up your vehicle because gas is like $1.50 a gallon less there than in Cali.

 

[Walt]

I know it happens in S. Cali. There are people that live in places like Bullhead City / Lake Havasu or Blythe that commute by air into LA because the cost of housing and such is so much lower that spending $30,000 or more a year on flights is cheaper than owning or renting in LA itself, or it used to be. Not sure if it's still done today but I wouldn't be surprised. If you live in Blythe for example, it's worth driving to Quartsite or Ehernburg AZ-- about 30 miles or less--to fill up your vehicle because gas is like $1.50 a gallon less there than in Cali.

Lets do the math on that. The flight from Bullhead to LA is an hour and a half. You have to be at the airport half an hour early at Bullhead, and an hour early at LA. It might take you half an hour to get to the airport at Bullhead, and an hour at LA. So you have a 2.5 hour commute into work, and a 3 hour commute out of work. That is an extra 5.5 hours of commuting, every day... If you are lucky, but anyone who travels by air knows you are never lucky.

If you are in Europe or China, you could take a train. It drops you off right in the center of the city, so no need for a long commute into and out of a far off airport. It is already integrated into the transportation system. And it does not require you to travel a long distance just to find cheaper land close to an airport.

Now you can reduce the time of air travel, if you switch to a helicopter that only transports you... But that is expensive, and as with all air travel very, very loud.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Lets do the math on that. The flight from Bullhead to LA is an hour and a half. You have to be at the airport half an hour early at Bullhead, and an hour early at LA. It might take you half an hour to get to the airport at Bullhead, and an hour at LA. So you have a 2.5 hour commute into work, and a 3 hour commute out of work. That is an extra 5.5 hours of commuting, every day... If you are lucky, but anyone who travels by air knows you are never lucky.

If you are in Europe or China, you could take a train. It drops you off right in the center of the city, so no need for a long commute into and out of a far off airport. It is already integrated into the transportation system. And it does not require you to travel a long distance just to find cheaper land close to an airport.

Now you can reduce the time of air travel, if you switch to a helicopter that only transports you... But that is expensive, and as with all air travel very, very loud.

Wrong, flying time from Blythe or Lake Havasu City is about 30 minutes. It's one hour almost exactly Phoenix to LA or San Diego. I know that well having made those flights numerous times over the years. The wait time for a train is going to be the same as for an aircraft. At both ends, ground transportation will be equivalent. Given the snarl of traffic on LA freeways, your commute home to an LA burb like say, Hacienda Heights is going to be the same as if you flew from one of those border cities.
If you need a vehicle in LA, rent parking space and keep a vehicle there. It's cheaper than trying to rent or own near your work where a house could run close to a million in cost with equivalently high property taxes unless you've owned the property for many decades.

A train costs the same as flying, or more, and is far slower than the flight.

 

[Walt]

The flight from Bullhead to LA is an hour and a half.

Wrong, flying time from Blythe or Lake Havasu City is about 30 minutes. It's one hour almost exactly Phoenix to LA or San Diego.

OK, you started with Bullhead, and now you have switched to Blythe. There are no commercial flights from Blythe to LAX anymore. The last commercial flight was 30 years ago. It is now a cargo airport.

From Bullhead to LAX is technically a hour and 15 minutes, while from Phoenix to LAX is technically an hour and a half. If you show up to the gate exactly on time, they will not let you on the plane. You really should be showing up at the airport a half an hour to an hour early, to get to the gate at least 15 minutes early. There is no way to take a commercial plane from Phoenix to LAX in an hour.

As for San Diego, it is more expensive than LA, so what would be the point?

The wait time for a train is going to be the same as for an aircraft.

Not even close. The stop time for a train is 1 minute. The stop time for a plane is at least 30 minutes. You can get right on a train; you have to go through security to get on a plane. Trains take less than a minute to get up to speed, while planes take 30 minutes to get up to altitude.

At both ends, ground transportation will be equivalent.

The travel time from Penn Station to Madison Square Park is about 5 minutes. The travel time from La Guardia to Madison Square Garden is about an hour, and involves going to Penn Station first. Commuter railroad stations are in the center of cities, while airports are on the periphery.

 

[Into the Night]

I know people who fly into work, but none commute.

Argument of ignorance fallacy. I personally know of several.

They will fly to a remote location, or to a place they cannot afford to live, for a week or three, and then fly out. They do not do a daily commute.

No, they commute. Usually between Seattle and some other airport.

Every now and then, you hear of someone flying into Manhattan on a helicopter, but is extremely rare on a daily basis.

Special pleading fallacy.

So why don't you name some of these people who commute by air?

I do not give out personal information on JPP.

The vast majority of the people commute in our biggest city by rail.

Define 'our biggest city'. The biggest city in the States of America is Anchorage, AK. There is no rail system in major use. People commute by air, or just live in the Anchorage area and drive.

Outside of the USA, it is the norm to commute by rail into any major city.

Wandering off topic again. The topic is high speed rail, not commuter rail.

Europeans and Chinese commute by high speed rail by the millions.

You are making up numbers again. Argument from randU fallacy.

Literally hundreds of millions of people worldwide commute by rail.

You are making up numbers again. Argument from randU fallacy.

You really seem to wander off the topic. The topic of this thread is about high speed rail, specifically the high speed rail project in the SOTC. It is not about commuter rail, light rail, or any other rail or subway system.

 

[Into the Night]

I know it happens in S. Cali. There are people that live in places like Bullhead City / Lake Havasu or Blythe that commute by air into LA because the cost of housing and such is so much lower that spending $30,000 or more a year on flights is cheaper than owning or renting in LA itself, or it used to be. Not sure if it's still done today but I wouldn't be surprised. If you live in Blythe for example, it's worth driving to Quartsite or Ehernburg AZ-- about 30 miles or less--to fill up your vehicle because gas is like $1.50 a gallon less there than in Cali.

It is still done today. Some of these people even own their own planes.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The flight time Lake Havasu to LA is 57 minutes.

https://www.travelmath.com/flying-time/from/Lake+Havasu+City,+AZ/to/Los+Angeles,+CA

This site claims it's 42 minutes.

https://www.distancesto.com/flight-time/us/lake-havasu-city-to-los-angeles/history/124023.html

This one 50 minutes.

https://www.distancesto.com/flight-...es-connection-quartzsite/history/1130969.html

Trip advisor shows a round trip from Lake Havasu to LA is as cheap as $44.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Flights-g32655-o31262-Lake_Havasu_City_to_Los_Angeles.html

Regardless, a train would have multiple stops along the way between the two cities and it wouldn't be high speed fail so you are looking at around 70 mph which means it would take several hours to cover the distance. Even high speed fail at 150 mph would take hours to run the distance. Stop times for trains would be well in excess of 1 minute per station. In addition, all it takes for trains to end up like airports for security is a single serious terrorist attack on one. You can bet your ass:

A. That will happen and is more likely to happen with more train use.
B. That it is likely to happen regardless out of an over-abundance of caution.

As for locations of airports, that varies. Sky Harbor in Phoenix is minutes from downtown Phoenix and flights in and out go over downtown daily as but one example.

 

[Into the Night]

you cant figure out something simple like a face mask. You need to stop posting about stuff educated people know about.

Inversion fallacy. Paradox M.