Are Biblical Laws About Homosexuality Eternal? Op-Ed by R.E.Friedman and S. Dolansky

Oh, they are going to hate on you...for telling the truth. LOL

They have for many years, I, like you, have more people on ignore than I communicate with on this forum. It use to be a lot more civil debate, but with familiarity comes contempt. They claim itisbecause I can't argue their points, but truly it is because I can't tolerate their juvenile back and forth. I like a good insult, but most of what they say isn't even close to witty. The young ins do a better job with their jabs! At least they use no pretext of being clever, they just insult.
 
He doesn't know the Bible.

They believe it was when Noah was drunk, right after they got off the Ark! Another story that cracks me up! These were the best Yahweh could come up with? I would have scrapped humankind and gone back to the drawing board. Humans always make Yahweh sound so stupidly human!
 
Your own (or other homophobic) interpretations aside, where does the Bible speak of Ham's homosexual act?

I agree that the text on Ham deals with his mocking his father's drunken state and his nakedness to his brother's. There are plenty of other texts that condemn homosexuality- The interpretation of Ham's sin is inconsequential to the debate except as a straw man argument.
 
They believe it was when Noah was drunk, right after they got off the Ark! Another story that cracks me up! These were the best Yahweh could come up with? I would have scrapped humankind and gone back to the drawing board. Humans always make Yahweh sound so stupidly human!

Which is why I don't put too much credence into the God of the Old Testament...an avenging, spiteful, hateful God.
 
I agree that the text on Ham deals with his mocking his father's drunken state and his nakedness to his brother's. There are plenty of other texts that condemn homosexuality- The interpretation of Ham's sin is inconsequential to the debate except as a straw man argument.

If it is brought up as proof God punishes homosexuality, then asking for any evidence of that is perfectly acceptable.
 
LOL. And your illusions of grandeur, by the mere suggestion of your ID, is directly corrolated to your penile envy. The loftier the delusion, the smaller the member.

Then that must mean that your's is now inverted; because all you do is reveal the delusion of your own issusion of grandeur.
 
If it is brought up as proof God punishes homosexuality, then asking for any evidence of that is perfectly acceptable.

It is a teaching that is out there- I disagree with that teaching and I think the hermeneutic of Ham's sin is clearer when you understand it from the nature of his punishment. Ham's punishment has to do with authority and submission, which further indicates the nature of Ham’s sin, i.e. the punishment fits the crime. He mocked his father and took his robe- Noah was a king- a kings robe is a sign of his authority. Shem and Japheth understood their brother's sin as an attempt to usurp Noah's authority. This is why they handled the robe in the manner in which they did- showing honor and respect. They would have nothing to do with it, and symbolically uphold Noah’s authority by placing the robe on their shoulders, and are careful not to behold their father’s nakedness.
 
The whole debate about homosexuality as is a straw man, witch hunt, whatever you wish to call it. Burn that baby to the ground, it is Bronze aged thinking and should be left in the time and place it was condemned, the Dark Ages. I prefer to think that humans have advanced in their thinking and their attitudes towards one another, we are now the product of enlightenment and if you believe some, the saving death of Jesus. We also do not practice incest any longer, legally, but it was once acceptable in the Old Testament. The same with child and arranged marriages. We no longer believe the Sun rotates around the Earth. Slavery is accepted and woman are allowed to own land. Divorce is more common than marriage or getting to be. Living together is accepted by most cultures and indentured servitude is no longer an accepted practice. The burning of offerings in the Temple as also gone the way of other Bronze Aged practices. We still invade and kill others to advance our tenets, but some of the ancient and ridiculous social customs have been done away with for good reason.
 
It is a teaching that is out there- I disagree with that teaching and I think the hermeneutic of Ham's sin is clearer when you understand it from the nature of his punishment. Ham's punishment has to do with authority and submission, which further indicates the nature of Ham’s sin, i.e. the punishment fits the crime. He mocked his father and took his robe- Noah was a king- a kings robe is a sign of his authority. Shem and Japheth understood their brother's sin as an attempt to usurp Noah's authority. This is why they handled the robe in the manner in which they did- showing honor and respect. They would have nothing to do with it, and symbolically uphold Noah’s authority by placing the robe on their shoulders, and are careful not to behold their father’s nakedness.

I agree with you. The disrespect shown to Noah was the sin involved. I think that the teaching that Ham was punished for homosexual acts is also a clear warning of the dangers of interpretation of scriptures by adding details that are not there. Too many people will follow those interpretations and use them in hateful ways.


I see the biggest problem in Christianity today is that we have overcomplicated what should be a very simple concept. So many use their religious doctrines and dogma as methods of control instead of as inspiration for sharing love and living a life of service.
 
I agree with you. The disrespect shown to Noah was the sin involved. I think that the teaching that Ham was punished for homosexual acts is also a clear warning of the dangers of interpretation of scriptures by adding details that are not there. Too many people will follow those interpretations and use them in hateful ways.


I see the biggest problem in Christianity today is that we have overcomplicated what should be a very simple concept. So many use their religious doctrines and dogma as methods of control instead of as inspiration for sharing love and living a life of service.

The only way to avoid bad hermeneutics is to use good ones. 121 Scholars worked for over 5 years to write a confession that used a theology that is systematic i.e. scripture interprets scripture because God is unchanging in his being and his nature.
 
I agree with you. The disrespect shown to Noah was the sin involved. I think that the teaching that Ham was punished for homosexual acts is also a clear warning of the dangers of interpretation of scriptures by adding details that are not there. Too many people will follow those interpretations and use them in hateful ways.


I see the biggest problem in Christianity today is that we have overcomplicated what should be a very simple concept. So many use their religious doctrines and dogma as methods of control instead of as inspiration for sharing love and living a life of service.

Very nicely stated.
 
Sex outside of marriage was frowned upon in the Bible. Divorce was not an option. Those who divorce and remarry were considered adulterers according to the Bible. That just doesn 't fly with Supposed Christians today. They want their divorce and they want to shop on Sundays, too! Christians pick and choose which of the supposed Biblical laws they wish to follow and the churches go with what is popular to fill the pews! It is all laughable, even salvation for Peter and Paul both saw it differently, and Paul won, he was the better writer!

Actually, according to the Bible, unless due to infidelity a woman who was divorced by her husband and remarried was committing adultery. The verses I read said nothing at all about the man. I can't see how it would be possible because in Christ's time there was still plural marriage.
 
The whole debate about homosexuality as is a straw man, witch hunt, whatever you wish to call it. Burn that baby to the ground, it is Bronze aged thinking and should be left in the time and place it was condemned, the Dark Ages. I prefer to think that humans have advanced in their thinking and their attitudes towards one another, we are now the product of enlightenment and if you believe some, the saving death of Jesus. We also do not practice incest any longer, legally, but it was once acceptable in the Old Testament. The same with child and arranged marriages. We no longer believe the Sun rotates around the Earth. Slavery is accepted and woman are allowed to own land. Divorce is more common than marriage or getting to be. Living together is accepted by most cultures and indentured servitude is no longer an accepted practice. The burning of offerings in the Temple as also gone the way of other Bronze Aged practices. We still invade and kill others to advance our tenets, but some of the ancient and ridiculous social customs have been done away with for good reason.

Brilliant. Post of the thread.
 
Actually, according to the Bible, unless due to infidelity a woman who was divorced by her husband and remarried was committing adultery. The verses I read said nothing at all about the man. I can't see how it would be possible because in Christ's time there was still plural marriage.

Actually it is infidelity or abandonment. It matters not the husband or the wife. In Christ's time polygamy was a practice, though not acceptable under Mosaic law. link
 
I agree that the text on Ham deals with his mocking his father's drunken state and his nakedness to his brother's. There are plenty of other texts that condemn homosexuality- The interpretation of Ham's sin is inconsequential to the debate except as a straw man argument.
That wouldn't justify condemnation of Canaan and his offspring.

The very first reference to a homosexual act in Scripture occurs when Ham, the son of Noah, went into his father’s tent while Noah was in a drunken stupor, and “saw the nakedness of his father.” (see Genesis 9:22)
While somewhat euphemistic, this phrase is a Hebrew metaphor which literally means to engage in illicit sex with. The phrase appears other places in Scripture, but this incidence is quite telling.
Verse 24 of the same chapter says, “And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.”
This was not a case of Ham simply stumbling into his father’s tent and accidentally finding him naked. His act toward his father had lifetime consequences that extended to every generation that came forth from his loins.
Since Ham already had a son, Canaan, Noah could not cut off the seed coming forth from his son, so he said, “Cursed be Canaan: a servant of servants shall he be to his brethren.” (verse 25)
[Source: Regner A. Capener]
 
And further, from the same reference:

The further consequence of Ham’s sin of homosexuality is illustrated in the fact that the seven sons of Canaan each fathered tribes that became nations occupying all of what generally became known as the land of Canaan. Those seven nations were identified as the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites. The curse of Noah upon Ham’s seed was, in reality, God’s curse; and in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, the Lord says to Moses, “When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whiter thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son……”
 
That wouldn't justify condemnation of Canaan and his offspring.

[Source: Regner A. Capener]

You are right- that is why I expounded further-

I disagree with that teaching and I think the hermeneutic of Ham's sin is clearer when you understand it from the nature of his punishment. Ham's punishment has to do with authority and submission, which further indicates the nature of Ham’s sin, i.e. the punishment fits the crime. He mocked his father and took his robe- Noah was a king- a kings robe is a sign of his authority. Shem and Japheth understood their brother's sin as an attempt to usurp Noah's authority. This is why they handled the robe in the manner in which they did- showing honor and respect. They would have nothing to do with it, and symbolically uphold Noah’s authority by placing the robe on their shoulders, and are careful not to behold their father’s nakedness.
 
That wouldn't justify condemnation of Canaan and his offspring.

[Source: Regner A. Capener]

There is no mention of any homosexual act whatsoever. I would be interested to see the other occurrances of this "hebrew metaphor", because I haven't read that.
 
You are right- that is why I expounded further-

I disagree with that teaching and I think the hermeneutic of Ham's sin is clearer when you understand it from the nature of his punishment. Ham's punishment has to do with authority and submission, which further indicates the nature of Ham’s sin, i.e. the punishment fits the crime. He mocked his father and took his robe- Noah was a king- a kings robe is a sign of his authority. Shem and Japheth understood their brother's sin as an attempt to usurp Noah's authority. This is why they handled the robe in the manner in which they did- showing honor and respect. They would have nothing to do with it, and symbolically uphold Noah’s authority by placing the robe on their shoulders, and are careful not to behold their father’s nakedness.

I read that from you previously- I just don't agree with it. God wouldn't have instructed the Hebrews to destroy 7 nations because Noah was embarrassed.

Our source for this essay in Donald Wold's Out of Order: Homosexuality and the Bible in the Ancient Near East. Our purpose is to look at the question of what Genesis says with respect to homosexuality, and with specific focus on one passage that is often taken to refer to homosexuality, but is argued by critics to not do so (Sodom and Gommorah), and then look at a passage that is seldom understood to refer to homosexuality, but that Wold argues does so, in a condemning way.

Let's start with the one that everyone discusses:

Genesis 19:4-11 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Common critics' points, with our answers (including from Wold):

"Know" doesn't mean sexuality, it just means, "get to know".

Critics admit that the word used (the very common yada) does at times refer euphemistically to sexual activity, but that this is seldom the case. However, Wold points out that the presence of a mixed group, as opposed to merely elders, speaks against this being any sort of "welcoming committee" (for elders had that role in an ancient village or city [82ff -- there is no evidence, Wold notes, for the claim that Lot violated hospitality by not getting permission to have a guest; no such custom is known]).

Critics also fail to consider the full semantic field: In other languages of the period, there are equivalent verbs to yada (in Egyptian, Ugaritic, Akkadian) which are clearly used with a sexual connotation. In addition, critics admit that yada means sexual intercourse in Judges 19:25, a story which scholars unhesitatingly identify as having used Gen. 19 as a literary model. It is also clear that yada is used sexually of Lot's daughters in 19:8.

Finally, the LXX translators used a Greek verb which clearly indicated that they understood yada in 19:5 in a sexual sense (hence, it is false to claim that no Jewish scholars read the text this way prior to Christianity).

They were just being inhospitable.

Of course, there is no doubt under our view that the Sodomites were also inhospitable. But the refusal to take Lot's daughters shows that the matter was likely one of social dominance: the men wished to show that they were social superiors to Lot's visitors, and they wished to accomplish this by means of the socially-dominating act of homosexuality. Moreover, the "persistence of the Sodomites does not reflect the demeanor of would-be hospitable folk." If it were, Lot would have hardly protested as he did.
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/genhom.html
 
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