Ayn Rand Christmas Cards

You've been here 10 minutes or so you say, and pretend you know personal info about my charitable donations. That's why I called you a congenital idiot. It's people like you who don't give. You sound like one of these guys who says if people fall on hard times it's their own fault.

You want to use force to compel "charity" giving. That says it all. Did you know that you don't need a gun pointed at you to give money to charity? You can go ahead and do it yourself? Learn something every day, don't you, sweet heart? Government sucks at charity being at best just a waste of money and more typically harmful, such as designing programs to foster dependency rather than independence
 
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lol....so he's been here 10 minutes and you claim you know about HIS contributions?......

I like to give money to accountable charities rather than government. I actually research them on sites like the BBB, Charity Navigator and give.com. I want to make sure my money is used well.

Obama says he should pay more taxes because government needs the money. Then he doesn't. Not only does chickie vote for him, but she's silent about his supporters like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates who say the same thing then evade taxes as well as Democrats like Daschle and Rangle who actually cheat on taxes.

She is transparently obvious what it's about. She wants to get, not give
 
What if you read the op and address the question? Have you been on a message board before? What about that do you not grasp?
You keep woofling on about something I have not been talking about, simply, God knows why.
 
I have checked back, and as I thought, the thread is about Ayn Rand. the semi-literate right-wing scribbler.
 
Getting back to Rand. The major flaw of Rand is essentially the same flaw in Marx philosophy. Both Rand and Marx preach a clean, perfect, ideal that doesn't exist in reality. Rand preaches about enlightened, rational, self interest. Marx preaches "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Rand preaches pure capitalism. Marx preaches pure socialism (i.e. communism).

The problem with both is that in reality they don't exist in pure form. In reality civilized society has always....ALWAYS...been a balancing act between self interest and collective interest. Something interesting happens when people acting only in rational self interest interact with each other. They screw themselves over. The "Prisoners Dilemma" provides an excellent analogy of how this happens and why it's a serious flaw in objectivist philosophy.

 
Getting back to Rand. The major flaw of Rand is essentially the same flaw in Marx philosophy. Both Rand and Marx preach a clean, perfect, ideal that doesn't exist in reality. Rand preaches about enlightened, rational, self interest. Marx preaches "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Rand preaches pure capitalism. Marx preaches pure socialism (i.e. communism).

The problem with both is that in reality they don't exist in pure form. In reality civilized society has always....ALWAYS...been a balancing act between self interest and collective interest. Something interesting happens when people acting only in rational self interest interact with each other. They screw themselves over. The "Prisoners Dilemma" provides an excellent analogy of how this happens and why it's a serious flaw in objectivist philosophy.


The difference between Rand and Marx is that Rand promised you she'll leave you and your property alone
 
The difference between Rand and Marx is that Rand promised you she'll leave you and your property alone
Only until it serves her best interest not to do so. If taking your property was in her best interest, she wouldn't hesitate to do so. That is selfishness. You take care of yourself, screw your neighbor.
 
The difference between Rand and Marx is that Rand promised you she'll leave you and your property alone
...and Marx promised not to abandon you to exploitation red in fang and claw. Both of which are moot points as neither philosophies, as pure systems, work in reality and as Rand would have said "Reality is real". Ironic considering Rand's position on contradictions of which this is one she never resolved.
 
Only until it serves her best interest not to do so. If taking your property was in her best interest, she wouldn't hesitate to do so. That is selfishness. You take care of yourself, screw your neighbor.

I was just wondering what a troll would think at this particular moment. Thank you for answering that question.

That makes no sense. That is central to libertarianism. As long as there is mob rule, the oppression of the majority, no minority is safe. It's pure selfishness to not support the crap you just made up.

Thanks for your input. You can go back to spamming and derailing threads now
 
...and Marx promised not to abandon you to exploitation red in fang and claw. Both of which are moot points as neither philosophies, as pure systems, work in reality and as Rand would have said "Reality is real". Ironic considering Rand's position on contradictions of which this is one she never resolved.

That doesn't contradict what I said
 
I was just wondering what a troll would think at this particular moment. Thank you for answering that question.

That makes no sense. That is central to libertarianism. As long as there is mob rule, the oppression of the majority, no minority is safe. It's pure selfishness to not support the crap you just made up.

Thanks for your input. You can go back to spamming and derailing threads now
You obviously don't know the meaning of spamming or derailing, lol
 
That doesn't contradict what I said
No but it does make it a moot point. Our society has always been a balance between individual interest and collective interest. In reality Rand's absolutist view on private property doesn't work. There our times where collective interest outweigh private interest. It's why we have eminent domain laws which without we would have no public infrastructure. Unlike the Marxist system though we do have due process of law to protect those property rights. As I said, it's a balance between the two.
 
Only until it serves her best interest not to do so. If taking your property was in her best interest, she wouldn't hesitate to do so. That is selfishness. You take care of yourself, screw your neighbor.

Incorrect. Rational self-interest would not allow for that. The long view must be payed attention to, I cannot stress this enough. This is the largest disconnect for leftists who assume that "selfish" means the same thing as careless. Rational self-interest takes the long view. You may do what you want so long as it does not negatively affect the rights of others... this is the basic theme of the philosophy.

The neighbor (you) could possibly be a later customer, it does not serve to piss off people that you may later be working with or for in your rational self-interest. The rational self-interest would require a good deal for both parties or no deal.
 
Only until it serves her best interest not to do so. If taking your property was in her best interest, she wouldn't hesitate to do so. That is selfishness. You take care of yourself, screw your neighbor.

Not true since she believed in private property rights and ownership.
 
Incorrect. Rational self-interest would not allow for that. The long view must be payed attention to, I cannot stress this enough. This is the largest disconnect for leftists who assume that "selfish" means the same thing as careless. Rational self-interest takes the long view. You may do what you want so long as it does not negatively affect the rights of others... this is the basic theme of the philosophy.

The neighbor (you) could possibly be a later customer, it does not serve to piss off people that you may later be working with or for in your rational self-interest. The rational self-interest would require a good deal for both parties or no deal.

I had a post, deleted part of it, hate typing on my phone, so I found this article which does a better job of voicing my objections to Rand

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...ad-obscene-or-why-objectivism-flawe/?page=all

Well suppose I have a duty to fulfill my rational self-interest, and you have a duty to fulfill yours. Suppose I decide that my rational self-interest is best fulfilled by taking your property. Now a truly consistent Randian will have to either permit himself to be robbed (thus violating his own self-interest), which he cannot do under Randianism, or he has to object on the grounds that, in addition to the moral duty, I have toward myself, I also have a moral duty toward him.
In other words, the only way that our duties toward our own well being can be practically fulfilled is if we all have duties toward each other as well. Now this is fatal to the whole Randian program, because if I have moral duties toward you and myself, there are at least some circumstances in which I, according to justice, owe you something, just for being you. That’s altruism and according to Rand, its verboten.
Now the only way that Randians and their Libertarian cousins can avoid this consequence is to claim that because a person has duties toward himself, he also has, as a logical corollary, rights. He has a right to his person, property, labor, etc.
While I do not dispute that he has such rights, there is nothing in this that rules out coercion, unless I also have a duty not to coerce against you. There are, however, two problems with this. The first is that this still admits altruistic duties toward your person; at the very least, I have to place your rights above my desires for my own fulfillment, at your expense.
The second reason is that negative rights, such as a right not to be coerced, are potentially infinite in number, and therefore practically useless in reality. You could never list all the things I’m not allowed to do to you. The minute you start to make a short, sensible list of things—the right not to be killed, tortured, robbed or blackmailed, for example—I must immediately ask “Why did you pick those four, and not ‘The right not to have a piano shot from a cannon at me?”
At this point you will have to come back to some positive conception of rights and duties, which brings us right back to altruism: You and I only have rights and duties if we have an obligation to care for each other, but if we have such an obligation, then altruism is back on the table.
Finally, it should be quite obvious that in all societies, a substantial number of individuals are in no position to look after their own self interest. Infants, children, many of the elderly and the physically and mentally infirm—the latter whom Rand called “subnormal” and “ungifted”—cannot look after their own rational self interest. They require others to sacrifice their own freedom and apparent self-actualization. Moreover, every human being must exist, at some point in his life, in a state of dependency upon the care of others. Even Ayn Rand was a child at one time. *
Now an Objectivist can avoid this issue by pointing out that there are some who will take care of these people because they happen to find it fulfilling, but exactly what he cannot say is that such people, simply in virtue of being people, merit or are owed such care. Therein lays the secret monstrosity of Rand’s philosophy. It is with this sort of thing in mind that Whitaker Chambers, in his famous review of Atlas Shrugged quipped:
“From almost any page of Atlas Shrugged, a voice can be heard, from painful necessity, commanding: “To a gas chamber — go!”
Rand, reacting against the aggressive collectivism of our day, which treats every individual person as a mere fungus, a mere node of the Great Organism called Society, preached an individualism that is just as anti-personal. The truth about mere man is that he is not mere man. Man is a political animal, in the truly Aristotelian sense of that term. He is made, by his Creator and by nature, to be a person-in-relation.
“It is not good for man to be alone.” He is an individual, yes. Not a member of a hive, or a particle of sentient fungus. Yet, his individuality, his personality, his true self-interest, can only be realized in relationship to another. Thus, he invariably finds the highest fulfillment of his personhood in love and friendship, and in the service to and sacrifice for others.
At the end of Atlas Shrugged, John Galt, Rand’s atheist capitalist Jesus Christ, confirms all his disciples in Galt’s Gulch in mutual exploitation by blessing them with the sign of the dollar. This scene confirms for the reader, as if there were any doubt, that Rand’s philosophy, for all its bells and whistles, is nothing more than the radical narcissism of him who said “I will not serve!”
And while those who lovingly take up the cross of moral responsibility toward their neighbors will eventually shrug it off, there is no rest for the narcissist who thinks he bears the weight of the world’s success on his own shoulders.
* This paragraph has been amended from an earlier version that read “…it should be quite obvious that in all societies, the vast majority of individuals are in no position to look after their own self interest. ” The author incorrectly stated that in any society, dependents outnumber independent adults. The changes reflect his actual intent and the author thanks his reader for the correction.
Joseph Breslin is a writer, teacher, husband, father and convicted bibliophile, currently living in the shadow of that great bureaucratic beast on the Potomac. He enjoys philosophy, history, economics, complaining and the outdoors.
 
No but it does make it a moot point. Our society has always been a balance between individual interest and collective interest. In reality Rand's absolutist view on private property doesn't work. There our times where collective interest outweigh private interest. It's why we have eminent domain laws which without we would have no public infrastructure. Unlike the Marxist system though we do have due process of law to protect those property rights. As I said, it's a balance between the two.

That's ridiculous, that she wouldn't take your property or freedom while Marx would leave you with neither is in no possible way a "moot point"
 
I had a post, deleted part of it, hate typing on my phone, so I found this article which does a better job of voicing my objections to Rand

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...ad-obscene-or-why-objectivism-flawe/?page=all

Well suppose I have a duty to fulfill my rational self-interest, and you have a duty to fulfill yours. Suppose I decide that my rational self-interest is best fulfilled by taking your property. Now a truly consistent Randian will have to either permit himself to be robbed (thus violating his own self-interest), which he cannot do under Randianism, or he has to object on the grounds that, in addition to the moral duty, I have toward myself, I also have a moral duty toward him.

This is basically the same thing you played before. The same answer applies. It does not serve your rational best interest to steal from another, this is the poorest assumption and only serves to underline that the writer of the article makes the same mistake as you do. First rational self-interest understands they have rights, which conversely means that you also have rights. Two with that same understanding and following the philosophy would not try to take what they have not earned from another.

In other words, the only way that our duties toward our own well being can be practically fulfilled is if we all have duties toward each other as well. Now this is fatal to the whole Randian program, because if I have moral duties toward you and myself, there are at least some circumstances in which I, according to justice, owe you something, just for being you. That’s altruism and according to Rand, its verboten.
This is also a failure to understand the central theme of the philosophy. What you call "duties towards each other" is simply a recognition of my rights/your rights. You do not steal from another because they have no right to take what they have not earned from you, therefore you do not have a right to take what you did not earn from them. It is rational to act on behalf of their rights if you expect them to act the same.

Now the only way that Randians and their Libertarian cousins can avoid this consequence is to claim that because a person has duties toward himself, he also has, as a logical corollary, rights. He has a right to his person, property, labor, etc.
While I do not dispute that he has such rights, there is nothing in this that rules out coercion, unless I also have a duty not to coerce against you. There are, however, two problems with this. The first is that this still admits altruistic duties toward your person; at the very least, I have to place your rights above my desires for my own fulfillment, at your expense.
It is not altruistic to simply recognize that hypocrisy is not a rational action. It is rational to expect others to act with knowledge of your rights, it is a simple logic to act the same towards theirs. It is, in fact, rational to make laws to protect those rights. Hence the illegality of theft.

The second reason is that negative rights, such as a right not to be coerced, are potentially infinite in number, and therefore practically useless in reality. You could never list all the things I’m not allowed to do to you. The minute you start to make a short, sensible list of things—the right not to be killed, tortured, robbed or blackmailed, for example—I must immediately ask “Why did you pick those four, and not ‘The right not to have a piano shot from a cannon at me?”
And this one makes me laugh the most. It is not necessary to list every "negative right". The government has no right to coerce me to change my religion, some thought it necessary to list this right in the Constitution but it doesn't make it necessary to list every right. Observed by Amendment 9...

At this point you will have to come back to some positive conception of rights and duties, which brings us right back to altruism: You and I only have rights and duties if we have an obligation to care for each other, but if we have such an obligation, then altruism is back on the table.

No, the logical fallacy displayed before doesn't allow for this extension of absurdity.

Finally, it should be quite obvious that in all societies, a substantial number of individuals are in no position to look after their own self interest. Infants, children, many of the elderly and the physically and mentally infirm—the latter whom Rand called “subnormal” and “ungifted”—cannot look after their own rational self interest. They require others to sacrifice their own freedom and apparent self-actualization. Moreover, every human being must exist, at some point in his life, in a state of dependency upon the care of others. Even Ayn Rand was a child at one time. *
Now an Objectivist can avoid this issue by pointing out that there are some who will take care of these people because they happen to find it fulfilling, but exactly what he cannot say is that such people, simply in virtue of being people, merit or are owed such care. Therein lays the secret monstrosity of Rand’s philosophy. It is with this sort of thing in mind that Whitaker Chambers, in his famous review of Atlas Shrugged quipped:
“From almost any page of Atlas Shrugged, a voice can be heard, from painful necessity, commanding: “To a gas chamber — go!”
Rand, reacting against the aggressive collectivism of our day, which treats every individual person as a mere fungus, a mere node of the Great Organism called Society, preached an individualism that is just as anti-personal. The truth about mere man is that he is not mere man. Man is a political animal, in the truly Aristotelian sense of that term. He is made, by his Creator and by nature, to be a person-in-relation.
“It is not good for man to be alone.” He is an individual, yes. Not a member of a hive, or a particle of sentient fungus. Yet, his individuality, his personality, his true self-interest, can only be realized in relationship to another. Thus, he invariably finds the highest fulfillment of his personhood in love and friendship, and in the service to and sacrifice for others.
At the end of Atlas Shrugged, John Galt, Rand’s atheist capitalist Jesus Christ, confirms all his disciples in Galt’s Gulch in mutual exploitation by blessing them with the sign of the dollar. This scene confirms for the reader, as if there were any doubt, that Rand’s philosophy, for all its bells and whistles, is nothing more than the radical narcissism of him who said “I will not serve!”
And while those who lovingly take up the cross of moral responsibility toward their neighbors will eventually shrug it off, there is no rest for the narcissist who thinks he bears the weight of the world’s success on his own shoulders.
* This paragraph has been amended from an earlier version that read “…it should be quite obvious that in all societies, the vast majority of individuals are in no position to look after their own self interest. ” The author incorrectly stated that in any society, dependents outnumber independent adults. The changes reflect his actual intent and the author thanks his reader for the correction.
Joseph Breslin is a writer, teacher, husband, father and convicted bibliophile, currently living in the shadow of that great bureaucratic beast on the Potomac. He enjoys philosophy, history, economics, complaining and the outdoors.

And this is still a further extension of the fallacy presented from the beginning. The whole article plays off a false assumption which extends further using other logical fallacy (argument to the absurd being the most prevalent, piano shot from a cannon... geebus).

The reality is, almost all of your objection is based on a misunderstanding of the basic premise. It isn't altruism that would cause the rational mind to accept the rights of another, it is simple self-interest. If I expect my rights to be observed I must act the same towards others.
 
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