Birth of Jesus - Christmas

Mason 22 said:
You do know your pov,is offensive to every real Christian, and only proves ,you're completely uneducated about Jesus Christ! Not to mention you forgot about Isaiah 7:14 ,or have no old testament knowledge!
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Shouldn't be offensive. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can't say definitively that miracles are impossible, but Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and historians are all entitled to come to their own opinions about Jesus.
 
Cypress said:
Shouldn't be offensive. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can't say definitively that miracles are impossible, but Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and historians are all entitled to come to their own opinions about Jesus.
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They certainly are! But actions have consequences!
 
Daylight63 said:
I'd really like to see some of that. Like I said, I've never heard one way or the other.






Interesting. As I said, my understanding of the "out of wedlock" thing was that it was required to match up the Isaiahan prophecies.

And the whole reason Mary and Joseph had to wind up in Bethlehem was primarily to fulfill Micah 5:2

Apparently, at least according to Ehrmann, while Caesar Augustus had requested a census, Quirinius who was governor over Syria in about that time did NOT take a census. (https://www.bartehrman.com/mary-and-joseph/).

It still feels far more reasonable to assume that the nativity narrative is simply made up for religious reasons than to try to figure out why anyone would have known or remembered the comings and goings of two impoverished nobodies in a far flung corner of a colony of Rome. Because Mary and Joseph would NOT have been "known" to anyone until Jesus was revealed as the messiah.
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I wrote about Luke and Matthew framing their birth narratives on Hebrew bible prophecies in the first post.

Framing a miraculous virgin birth narrative is a late development in the canon. Luke and Matthew are writing in the last first century. We see no evidence that Paul, Mark, or James felt there was any need to conjure up a virgin birth narrative. All that Paul says is that Jesus was born of woman. Period, end of story. Mark seems to think Jesus in not even really fully divine until either the crucifixion.

Joeseph could have impregnated Mary outside of wedlock. If she was pregnant out of wedlock, it would be very convenient for the theological narratives Luke and Matthew desired to compose.

I don't have a strong opinion either way. This is what Jean Pierre Isbout writes about. Bart Ehrman is not the only NT scholar out there, though he seems to be the one that is relentlessly quoted and cited.
 
Cypress said:
Shouldn't be offensive. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can't say definitively that miracles are impossible, but Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and historians are all entitled to come to their own opinions about Jesus.
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But what you fail to realize the end of the Age is at hand! Only one way to avoid this Apocalypse!
"When you see the Reaper you know the Harvest is near.
 
Cypress said:
I wrote about Luke and Matthew framing their birth narratives on Hebrew bible prophecies in the first post.

Framing a miraculous virgin birth narrative is a late development in the canon. Luke and Matthew are writing in the last first century. We see no evidence that Paul, Mark, or James felt there was any need to conjure up a virgin birth narrative. All that Paul says is that Jesus was born of woman. Period, end of story. Mark seems to think Jesus in not really fully divine until either the crucifixion.

Joeseph could have impregnated Mary outside of wedlock. If she was pregnant out of wedlock, it would be very convenient for the narratives in Luke and Matthew.

I don't have a strong opinion either way. This is what Jean Pierre Isbout writes about. Bart Ehrman is not the only NT scholar out there, though he seems to be the one that is relentlessly quoted and cited.
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Isaiah 7:14
 
Daylight63 said:
cypress is actually being quite accepting of the story, just paring out the supernatural stuff.

Obviously MY position is far more offensive in that I don’t even see the need for any variation of the story to be true.
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I think it's a bad idea to come to the New Testament with a predisposition that either it's all literally true, or that it's all lies and fabrications.

All the good New Testament scholars I have read try to leave their biases at the door, and take a balanced approach to mining historically plausible data from theological narrative
 
Cypress said:
I think it's a bad idea to come to the New Testament with a predisposition that either it's all literally true, or that it's all lies and fabrications.

All the good New Testament scholars I have read try to leave their biases at the door, and take a balanced approach to mining historically plausible data from theological narrative
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That’s why I like Ehrmann
 
Margot said:
In a way YHWH is a Mafia Boss! YHWH pulls all the strings! But gives each and everyone a chance to be Passed Over at the Harvest!
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My only requirements for God is that he be logical and worthy of worship.

A God that creates people knowing they are imperfect and then punishes them for their imperfection is unworthy of even respect let alone worship
 
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