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he is banned....he made numerous threats to me on this board and two other boards....he threatened my home, family and employment....i don't care to even think about think about him
britain saved the USA during ww2
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he is banned....he made numerous threats to me on this board and two other boards....he threatened my home, family and employment....i don't care to even think about think about him
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The Almighty
translation: "I am in the process of creating yet another excuse not to provide any details as to why I stated Britain saved the US in WWII, in the mean time I will once again attempt to deflect the conversation and then I will run away again"
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My my, this is just like the old days on the WOT when the dyed in wool wing-nuts used to regularly hold polls like this. I guess it must harp back to the old lynch mob philosophy which apparently is still alive and well in modern America. I suppose one difference is that I’m white and not black. I can assure you that I’m not the least bit intimidated, however I chose to do battle in my own time and on my own ground. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So why do I assert that the US was saved by Britain in the Second World War? I guess that many Americans are not given to circumspection and alternate scenarios but I contend that if we had fallen in 1940 then it is without doubt that Germany along with Italy, Vichy France and Japan would have controlled a vast part of the world. It was really only the Brits who managed to stop the Germans from taking over North Africa, Egypt, the Middle East, India and Burma. If that had failed then who was going to stop them taking over the Indian sub-continent and maybe even Australia in league with the Japanese? Certainly if Japan had got lucky and got the US carriers as well as the warships, then the US would have been hamstrung at least long enough for them to complete the mission.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
Roosevelt didn’t even believe that Britain had the will to fight until the French Fleet was attacked off the coast of Algeria in July 1940 by the Royal Navy. If the Germans [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]had succeeded at [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Dunkerque and the British Expeditionary Force had been annihilated, as so nearly happened, then the French along with Italians would have had their navies intact and available to join forces with the Germans. It is also worth noting that the Royal Navy was the largest in the world in 1939 and the Axis powers would have been further emboldened by its loss. Indeed if Germany had successfully invaded Britain, unless the ships were scuttled in advance or destroyed in the battle then they in turn would have become part of the German Fleet. I contend that the Axis powers would have been in a position to control both the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Germans, because they no longer had to worry about the Brits, could then concentrate on taking Russia, again who was going to stop them apart from the Russians who were by then totally alone? Japan attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbour because Roosevelt tried to prevent them getting oil and other resources, so what would have happened if Germany was able to supply Japan with oil via pipelines from the Middle East and the Caspian Sea as well as by sea? Japan would also have had access to Burmese oil which again was really only because the Brits prevented them getting their hands on it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What about the atomic bomb I hear you say? The Germans had gone down the heavy water route rather than using graphite as a moderator but explain to me how [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the raids on the Vermork hydroelectric plant in Norway could have happened without the Brits? The Germans were getting there and they also were working on missiles and planes that were capable of reaching the eastern seaboard. By conquering Russia they would have had access to vast quantities of Uranium. They would also been able to co-opt Russian physicists and who knows how many American physicists of German extraction would have decided to divulge their secrets to the Fatherland.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There are many other things worth mentioning, Station X at Bletchley Park would have been silenced. When the United States joined the war, Churchill agreed with Roosevelt to pool resources, and a number of American cryptographers were posted to Bletchley Park. Whilst the British continued working on German ciphers, the Americans concentrated on Japanese ciphers. This would have been impossible if Britain had been successfully invaded and taken out. Britain also gave the Americans radar technology and jet engines. I could mention much more but that's enough for now.[/FONT]
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I forgot to mention that at the time of Operation Overlord, there were 140 German divisions on the Eastern Front and 40 on the Western Front, so who do you think Nazi Germany considered the greatest threat?
/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
Well thought out, but it's all supposition, not actual fact and ignores the crucial materials that America provided, as well as the assistance they provided in North Africa. Now if you were to say that America couldn't have fought the war alone, you would be much closer to being correct, but as it stands the United States was NOT 'saved' by Britain, and in fact, it could be asserted that without our material aid, Britain would have lost the war, as well as Russia.
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Of course it is supposition, we all know the ending but I was extrapolating from known events. We know very well that Britain would have been doomed without US support but it was only provided because it was in the US interest to do so. I might also point out the likely consequences for Ireland if Britain had fallen, I doubt that the IRA for one would have survived very long. Just imagine what would have happened if the western seaports were controlled by the Germans?
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wiseones2cents
Verified User
Come on Tom. Dont you know that the Americans are the masters and the best at everything and the cream of the crop, that stayed out of both world wars for the first few years and waited for the other countries to battle it out before they even decided to come and fight? There is no doubt the American's assistence was very valuable in the war but to think that the Americans won the war single handedly is laughable(like they are taught to believe). If Germany was where Canada is? The USA would have been part of Germany right now.
The Russians faced the bulk of the attack. Thanks to Hitler underestimating the Russians? The attack lasted right into the winter and the German army ran out of supplies. Due to the Russians destroying everything the Germans could use and retreating deeper into Russia.
I'm sure many countries played their part in the victory. There were also smaller countries that played key roles. Funny thing about history. Each country tells it with their own twist.
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Certainly very little recognition has been given to the contribution of the Indians, without them the war in Asia and North Africa would assuredly have been lost. The Sikhs and Gurkhas especially were fearsome fighters but their role has been almost totally obliterated from the official history of the Second World War.
http://ssubbanna.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/05/unacknowledged-heroes-of-ww2-the-indian-story.htm
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/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
I don't think ANYONE here asserted that America did it single handedly.
He pretends that is what people said so he can continue to have a negative view of Americans and their "arrogance"...
Now, if you turn around and start talking about all the "evil" that we do by buying stuff, he'll know you are one of the "good" Americans that it is "okay" to like...
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The Almighty
Thank you. The above is exactly the type of response I was originally looking for. I do like a good alternate scenario hypothesis. Things would most certainly have been different in Europe had Britain fallen prior to Pearl Harbor. For starters, the US would not likely have gotten involved in Europe had Britain gone down. We would likely (in my opinion) have focused solely on Japan had Pearl still occurred.
That said, I don't think the Germans would have ever taken Russia and held it... even if they had focused all of their military on them after the fall of Britain.
The Germans simply did not have the man power to control that much territory. The same holds true for Japan with regards to China. My guess is that had Britain fallen, Germany would have pulled back out of Russia and possibly conceded some of the Eastern European countries to appease Russia. Germany would have maintained control of Europe, Russia would see its borders expand a bit, China would still be China, Japan would still have been defeated by the US. The major powers in the world would likely be Germany, Russia and and the US at this time had this occurred.
As for the nukes... no way would we have used them on Europe. I think one of the factors in using them on Japan was Pearl. Germany had not attacked us directly and they would not have been a threat to come across the Atlantic to attack us. (again, my opinion)
Obviously this is all hypothetical, as is your post above... but I would disagree that Britain saved the US by not falling. It simply would have changed the major players a bit.
In a hypothetical world, anything is possible.... but you might have clarified earlier that you were talking about alternate reality rather than about actual history. It would have saved a lot of the hassele.
/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
It's people like this that make me so angry and yet so happy, because I love to argue with idiots.
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The Almighty
Russia... and I would certainly agree with that assessment. After taking Poland, the Russian border was within a few hundred miles... coming across land. There were far more scenarios to defend, not to mention the greater number of forces in opposition.
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The Almighty
Kind of reminds me of Cypress' tactics.
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Yet Hollywood has been instrumental in rewriting history, this happened even as early as 1945 with Objective Burma and continued with Bridge over the River Kwai, The Great Escape, Saving Private Ryan and U-571. Arguably U571 is the worst offender by contending that the Americans captured an Enigma machine when it was in fact the Royal Navy, but then again Saving Private Ryan is a close second for totally writing out the British and Canadian contribution to D-Day. How many people know that over half the troops landed on the Normandy beaches were non American and that the Royal Navy provided all the off shore support?
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I have a high opinion of Captain Billy as he is as least open to alternative viewpoints, even if he doesn't agree.
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Uwaa OmO
Well thank you, though I don't believe Damo was talking about me.
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I had thought that was it obvious, from my previous posts, that I was talking hypothetically but I guess I needed to spell it out.
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Uwaa OmO
U-571 perhaps, but I don't see that in SPR. The D-Day invasion was only shown in the beginning and naturally centered on the protagonist and his men. Since it was an American story about Americans, I don't see it as disingenuous to focus on them in that aspect. Now if it were about D-Day as a whole and left out those nations, then you'd have a stronger argument.
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It might have something to do with the fact that the only British officer was played by Tom Hanks! Maybe I should also be railing against the modern British film industry which prefers to avoid any films about WW2 apart from Enigma, so hats off to Mick Jagger for putting up the money to make the film in the first place.