Oracle Of JPP 714
nazi/racist hunter
that's still happening. lots of dangerous jobs. ask mike rowe.
Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values
- Thread starter PoliTalker
- Start date
that's still happening. lots of dangerous jobs. ask mike rowe.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello cawacko,
I bet there are a lot of Walmart workers who WISH they had things as nice as that.
I bet there are a lot of Walmart workers who WISH they had things as nice as that.
cawacko
Well-known member
it's pretty clearly not happening in the same numbers that it did half a century ago
Oracle Of JPP 714
nazi/racist hunter
who creates wealth? it's a chicken or egg argument.
cawacko
Well-known member
Is there something from preventing them getting a job where they work at a desk behind a computer as opposed to on the floor of the store? (which is what I'm assuming you're referencing)
Divorce rates, crime, and abortions are dropping. Out of wedlock birth rate is up but the teen birth rate is an all-time low. Out of wedlock birth rate is 41% in the U. S. but it is hard to blame that on capitalism since it is 55% in Sweden, 53% in France, 45% in the UK and 47% in New Zealand.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello cawacko,
If is not possible for all Walmart workers to get cubicle jobs. That is as silly a notion as a dog chasing it's own tail. No doubt some Walmart workers already do work their way up to a better job, but as soon as they leave, Walmart replaces them with others. Then, would you suggest that those replacement workers also work their way up to better jobs as well? And no doubt some would. But Walmart must have workers, so there will always be a number of workers at Walmart who wish they had better jobs.
CEO. There's a good job. Great benefits. Maybe everybody should just be CEO. But if everybody were a CEO, who would do any of the work?
At any given moment in the economy, there are more desirable jobs and less desirable jobs. The functions those who perform the less desirable jobs are doing must be done, so those positions will be filled with workers until capitalism figures out how to replace them with machines. Once all those positions are eliminated they will not be coming back.
Capitalism doesn't care about family values. That is not the point of capitalism. Capitalism simply means that those with capital will exploit those without capital. There is no caring. Caring is not involved. But our Constitution says we will care about people. The preamble says we will promote the general welfare. Capitalism doesn't do that.
When we use government to regulate capitalism we are following the Constitution. We are imposing a restriction on capitalism that prevents capitalism from destroying family values.
If is not possible for all Walmart workers to get cubicle jobs. That is as silly a notion as a dog chasing it's own tail. No doubt some Walmart workers already do work their way up to a better job, but as soon as they leave, Walmart replaces them with others. Then, would you suggest that those replacement workers also work their way up to better jobs as well? And no doubt some would. But Walmart must have workers, so there will always be a number of workers at Walmart who wish they had better jobs.
CEO. There's a good job. Great benefits. Maybe everybody should just be CEO. But if everybody were a CEO, who would do any of the work?
At any given moment in the economy, there are more desirable jobs and less desirable jobs. The functions those who perform the less desirable jobs are doing must be done, so those positions will be filled with workers until capitalism figures out how to replace them with machines. Once all those positions are eliminated they will not be coming back.
Capitalism doesn't care about family values. That is not the point of capitalism. Capitalism simply means that those with capital will exploit those without capital. There is no caring. Caring is not involved. But our Constitution says we will care about people. The preamble says we will promote the general welfare. Capitalism doesn't do that.
When we use government to regulate capitalism we are following the Constitution. We are imposing a restriction on capitalism that prevents capitalism from destroying family values.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello Flash,
That is only a single metric.
Are those foreign unmarried families living together and functioning as a family?
That is only a single metric.
Are those foreign unmarried families living together and functioning as a family?
cawacko
Well-known member
Capitalism is an economic system. A market economy being more desirable than a command economy isn't about family values it's about economics.
It's not capitalism that forces lawmakers to pass legislation that incentivizes women not to be with the father of their child. It's not capitalism that has eroded religion in our country and along with it a sense of community.
As far as walmart I'm sure the greeters and cashiers appreciate their job more than the back breaking labor of a century ago
evince
Truthmatters
racism is just one of the tools that those who wish to run the world for their own satisfaction.
but racism should always be crushed
its destructive and is a handy tool for evil
sociopaths love racism, sexism, classism anything that helps them keep the masses powerless and malleable
those who automatically see any other human benifiting must mean they are losing.
evince
Truthmatters
stop pretending you are not all about deregulation at any cost
without proper fettering Capitalism eats its self
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello cawacko,
A market economy favors the rich. It hurts family values if parents are too busy working to spend enough time with children.
Having good family values has nothing to do with religion.
Not if they earn so little that they have to work several jobs and still struggle to make ends meet or spend enough meaningful time with children.
A market economy favors the rich. It hurts family values if parents are too busy working to spend enough time with children.
Having good family values has nothing to do with religion.
Not if they earn so little that they have to work several jobs and still struggle to make ends meet or spend enough meaningful time with children.
cawacko
Well-known member
Command economies favor no one except the people in charge. Russia, Cuba and Venezuela showed that. Is that a desirable goal in your opinion?
There is no society in existence where every single person in that society is well to do and has plenty of free time. That hasn't and never will exist.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello cawacko,
No. We need to have the proper balance of capitalism and socialism. Our goal should be to maximize the best aspects of each and minimize the worst aspects of each.
Actually, I believe that is in our future. Younger people alive today may see that. As AI eliminates most jobs, society will be forced to implement a Universal Basic Income with no work requirement. This will free up the time of most individuals to pursue more worldly endeavors than simply making ends meet. Art, volunteering, and community projects will flourish. Capitalism will still exist, and some will work, some will be very wealthy. There will be nothing to stop entrepreneurs from developing and selling products and services.
No. We need to have the proper balance of capitalism and socialism. Our goal should be to maximize the best aspects of each and minimize the worst aspects of each.
Actually, I believe that is in our future. Younger people alive today may see that. As AI eliminates most jobs, society will be forced to implement a Universal Basic Income with no work requirement. This will free up the time of most individuals to pursue more worldly endeavors than simply making ends meet. Art, volunteering, and community projects will flourish. Capitalism will still exist, and some will work, some will be very wealthy. There will be nothing to stop entrepreneurs from developing and selling products and services.
cawacko
Well-known member
The beauty of a discussion board like this is we can dream about anything. In the real world there will never be a world like you desire in your second paragraph because it goes against human nature.
Yes, yes, yes, yes...and YES.
I see ca disagrees with your second paragraph...or at least considers it wishful thinking. It already is near to a reality in other civilized, developed industrial countries...and will be here also. The only thing still in question is whether it comes as a result of thoughtful political process...or as the result of riot and civil strife.
Never give up touting this, Poli; never allow yourself to be jaded of the idea. I hope you see it in your lifetime. I doubt I will.
I posted a thread a while back which nobody found interesting enough to comment in. It dealt with this issue from an initial philosophical standpoint. If you have the time, perhaps you could look it over.
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...o-we-ever-really-have-an-unemployment-problem
I don't think Poli's ideas go against human nature at all. I think a desire for more leisure time and less work ARE the stuff of human nature.
Poli is on to something important, ca. Try to see it in as favorable a light as possible.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello cawacko,
Well, obviously we disagree.
I don't really dream about what I envision. I simply realize that it appears inevitable. I am curious why you think a) it will never happen, and b) it goes against human nature.
As to a)
I don't see any way around it, actually. Artificial Intelligence is growing by leaps and bounds. Computing power continues to grow. Computer memory has gotten cheaper and cheaper. These trends will continue. Amazing things have been developed in just the last few decades we now take for granted. None of that progress is about to stop. What's around the corner? Artificial Intelligence, that's what. The power of AI is hard to imagine, but it is coming whether we want to believe it now or not. AI will be able to drive machines that will have the ability to learn and adapt. Machines will be able to identify an unusual problem and the need to take action, determine what action to take, and implement it. They will be able to do mental and physical problem solving. AI could envision a new machine for a purpose, design it, and build it. AI machines can fix and service other AI machines. AI machines could eventually replace doctors, engineers, nurses, technicians, service people, drivers, handlers, stock and sales, logistics, farmers, stock brokers, mechanics, pilots, executives, authors, architects, constructions workers, landscapers, even artists. Not all of these at first, but eventually, yes - all of them.
Since most of the functions done by humans will one day be done by machines, that can free up humans to do other things. The scary thing is where does it stop? Once machines realize they don't even need humans, what is to stop them from deciding we are not worth the hassle? No, I don't dream of this scenario. I recognize that it is a valid concern and we will have to figure out how to deal with it.
How will we transition from where we are now to this possible and likely future?
Capitalism rewards those who hold the most capital. The way we operate right now, the most complex machines are very expensive. They are primarily used to displace workers. A big rich corporation can own machines that replace workers, but most individuals cannot afford one so complex. The biggest employers will use their capital to invest in these smart machines, displacing huge swaths of workers. Warehouse pickers at Amazon and such will be among the first to lose their jobs. Truck drivers, taxi drivers and delivery drivers, also. Fast food workers. There will be some new jobs developing and servicing the initial machines, but those jobs will be far fewer than the ones eliminated. And most of the eliminated workers will find no suitable work for which they are capable. What is to become of them? They are not all going to school to learn how to perform more complex jobs. That impact on our economy will be devastating. And it will be only the beginning. Before all those workers can adjust, even more will lose their jobs.
The economic impact cannot be understated.
Something will have to be done. There are going to have to be changes in the way people acquire their sustenance. At first, unemployment and welfare programs will try to accommodate these changes, but quickly it will be too much. Those institutions will be overwhelmed. We are going to have to think about making some pretty major changes to the way our economy works in order to deal with all of this.
Why should government pay a bunch of workers to distribute funds when it might be a lot more cost effective to release most government social workers from their obligation and simply issue all of them, and the other displaced workers a monthly check instead?
Meanwhile, the holders of capital are going to have a big problem once too many workers are eliminated. Those workers are also their customers. If the ex-workers are no longer getting any income, they cannot buy products. The big corporations will be removing the wealth stream from those who provide the wealth stream for the big corporations. That is a recipe for a huge recession the likes of which has never been seen. It's not hard to see where all of that would be headed.
The Universal Basic Income. It's not a dream. It is an inevitability. There is no way for the economy to avoid catastrophe without it.
Let's look at b)
Does it really go against human nature for us to eliminate menial tasks and free our time up for other activities? I don't think so. Most people would love to be freed up from chasing the dollar all day to do more interesting things of their own choosing. How many rank and file workers do you think would jump at the chance to take any given day off the job if they were told they still get their paycheck anyway? Fishermen would go fishing. Jocks would play sports. Artists would create art. Writers would write. Cooks would cook. Gardeners would grow. Tinkerers would tinker. Talkers and socialites would talk and socialize. Party people would have parties. Bars would do a great business. Entrepreneurs would venture. Community groups would have more activities. And families would experience a new deeper bond with more time together.
Every day could and would be like that day.
I believe human nature is that most humans are tired and bored with doing the same job every day whether they feel like it or not. Some people really do enjoy their work, I know. And most people enjoy their work on some days. But not everybody enjoys their job every day. Huge numbers of people would jump at the chance to be freed from the bonds of labor to pursue whatever they felt like doing. That's how I see human nature.
You know, most people do not get enough sleep. This makes them irritable and poorly adjusted into society. This could represent a quantum shift in humanity. Imagine how well people would interact if everybody had the chance to get all the sleep they need? Better family values, more closeness, deeper bonds, more well-adjusted people who are not so stressed out and get proper sleep? That has got to produce a higher level of society.
This could be really great.
Well, obviously we disagree.
I don't really dream about what I envision. I simply realize that it appears inevitable. I am curious why you think a) it will never happen, and b) it goes against human nature.
As to a)
I don't see any way around it, actually. Artificial Intelligence is growing by leaps and bounds. Computing power continues to grow. Computer memory has gotten cheaper and cheaper. These trends will continue. Amazing things have been developed in just the last few decades we now take for granted. None of that progress is about to stop. What's around the corner? Artificial Intelligence, that's what. The power of AI is hard to imagine, but it is coming whether we want to believe it now or not. AI will be able to drive machines that will have the ability to learn and adapt. Machines will be able to identify an unusual problem and the need to take action, determine what action to take, and implement it. They will be able to do mental and physical problem solving. AI could envision a new machine for a purpose, design it, and build it. AI machines can fix and service other AI machines. AI machines could eventually replace doctors, engineers, nurses, technicians, service people, drivers, handlers, stock and sales, logistics, farmers, stock brokers, mechanics, pilots, executives, authors, architects, constructions workers, landscapers, even artists. Not all of these at first, but eventually, yes - all of them.
Since most of the functions done by humans will one day be done by machines, that can free up humans to do other things. The scary thing is where does it stop? Once machines realize they don't even need humans, what is to stop them from deciding we are not worth the hassle? No, I don't dream of this scenario. I recognize that it is a valid concern and we will have to figure out how to deal with it.
How will we transition from where we are now to this possible and likely future?
Capitalism rewards those who hold the most capital. The way we operate right now, the most complex machines are very expensive. They are primarily used to displace workers. A big rich corporation can own machines that replace workers, but most individuals cannot afford one so complex. The biggest employers will use their capital to invest in these smart machines, displacing huge swaths of workers. Warehouse pickers at Amazon and such will be among the first to lose their jobs. Truck drivers, taxi drivers and delivery drivers, also. Fast food workers. There will be some new jobs developing and servicing the initial machines, but those jobs will be far fewer than the ones eliminated. And most of the eliminated workers will find no suitable work for which they are capable. What is to become of them? They are not all going to school to learn how to perform more complex jobs. That impact on our economy will be devastating. And it will be only the beginning. Before all those workers can adjust, even more will lose their jobs.
The economic impact cannot be understated.
Something will have to be done. There are going to have to be changes in the way people acquire their sustenance. At first, unemployment and welfare programs will try to accommodate these changes, but quickly it will be too much. Those institutions will be overwhelmed. We are going to have to think about making some pretty major changes to the way our economy works in order to deal with all of this.
Why should government pay a bunch of workers to distribute funds when it might be a lot more cost effective to release most government social workers from their obligation and simply issue all of them, and the other displaced workers a monthly check instead?
Meanwhile, the holders of capital are going to have a big problem once too many workers are eliminated. Those workers are also their customers. If the ex-workers are no longer getting any income, they cannot buy products. The big corporations will be removing the wealth stream from those who provide the wealth stream for the big corporations. That is a recipe for a huge recession the likes of which has never been seen. It's not hard to see where all of that would be headed.
The Universal Basic Income. It's not a dream. It is an inevitability. There is no way for the economy to avoid catastrophe without it.
Let's look at b)
Does it really go against human nature for us to eliminate menial tasks and free our time up for other activities? I don't think so. Most people would love to be freed up from chasing the dollar all day to do more interesting things of their own choosing. How many rank and file workers do you think would jump at the chance to take any given day off the job if they were told they still get their paycheck anyway? Fishermen would go fishing. Jocks would play sports. Artists would create art. Writers would write. Cooks would cook. Gardeners would grow. Tinkerers would tinker. Talkers and socialites would talk and socialize. Party people would have parties. Bars would do a great business. Entrepreneurs would venture. Community groups would have more activities. And families would experience a new deeper bond with more time together.
Every day could and would be like that day.
I believe human nature is that most humans are tired and bored with doing the same job every day whether they feel like it or not. Some people really do enjoy their work, I know. And most people enjoy their work on some days. But not everybody enjoys their job every day. Huge numbers of people would jump at the chance to be freed from the bonds of labor to pursue whatever they felt like doing. That's how I see human nature.
You know, most people do not get enough sleep. This makes them irritable and poorly adjusted into society. This could represent a quantum shift in humanity. Imagine how well people would interact if everybody had the chance to get all the sleep they need? Better family values, more closeness, deeper bonds, more well-adjusted people who are not so stressed out and get proper sleep? That has got to produce a higher level of society.
This could be really great.
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