Challenging Hume to a Debate #2 - Physics of the Global Warming Faith : Is Greenhouse Effect Even Possible?

[IBDaMann]

Energy will leave the Earth's surface.

You don't know what Earth's surface is. This is an ongoing problem with you.

You can visually see it on a hot, asphalt road.

Nope. The effects of convection, i.e. refraction, can be observed in the air, but that is not energy leaving the surface.

In no way am I claiming energy won't leave the Earth's surface.

Are you claiming that light is somehow SLOWED to something less than the speed of light?

I shouldn't have to beg you to tell me what you do mean. Is there any hope that we will ever end this seemingly neverending story of what you don't mean?

I'm asking you why, despite energy radiating from the earth, do we not have huge drops in temperature

No celestial body has huge drops in its average equilibrium temperature.

Now, do you have a point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature?

 

[Kafka]

Nope. The effects of convection, i.e. refraction, can be observed in the air, but that is not energy leaving the surface.

Ummmmm......what do you think is causing the effect in refraction of which you speak? Yeah, that would be HOT air vs cooler air. How did the air get HOT? Do you think energy was involved?

Are you claiming that light is somehow SLOWED to something less than the speed of light?

The speed of light you are referencing is in a vacuum. So the light already passing through the atmosphere is slowed to less than the speed of light. (It slows in water as well, which is why you see refraction in water!)

No celestial body has huge drops in its average equilibrium temperature.

"Temperatures on Mercury are extreme. During the day, temperatures on the surface can reach 800 degrees Fahrenheit (430 degrees Celsius). Because the planet has no atmosphere to retain that heat, nighttime temperatures on the surface can drop to minus 290 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 180 degrees Celsius)." NASA

 

[ZenMode]

You don't know what Earth's surface is. This is an ongoing problem with you.


Nope. The effects of convection, i.e. refraction, can be observed in the air, but that is not energy leaving the surface.


Are you claiming that light is somehow SLOWED to something less than the speed of light?

I shouldn't have to beg you to tell me what you do mean. Is there any hope that we will ever end this seemingly neverending story of what you don't mean?


No celestial body has huge drops in its average equilibrium temperature.

Now, do you have a point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature?

Still avoiding the question.

"This is a direct violation of Stefan-Boltzmann. Nothing can reduce Earth's radiance (i.e. keep energy from leaving)"

Nobody is saying it is. The Earth's radiance is what it is.

Why, despite energy radiating from the earth (at whatever established rate that happens), do we not have huge drops in temperature that we would have if there were no atmosphere? In other words, what does atmosphere do with the energy radiating from the Earth AND how is it doing this?

 

[IBDaMann]

"So how does changing the concentration of a Greenhouse gas change how much heat escapes from the upper atmosphere?

Heat is not something that can be trapped, and heat is not something that can somehow escape. You should learn what heat is.

Eventually the air becomes thin enough that any heat radiated by the air can escape all the way to Space.

Did you say that this is the best summary you could find? It's gibberish. You should have called boooooolsch't, not immediately regurgitated it.

Air density is irrelevant to Earth's radiance.

How much heat escapes to space from this altitude then depends on how cold the air is at that height.

Nope. You should be embarrassed for having posted this nonsense.

The colder the air, the less heat it radiates."

This is true, but we're discussing Earth's radiance, not merely the atmosphere's radiance.

Ummm, what do you think happens with IR photons that radiate from the warmed surface of the planet back into the atmosphere.

You should learn what constitutes Earth's surface. Just take a stab. What is it?

 

[IBDaMann]

Still avoiding the question.

I'll take that as a "no," that you have no point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature.

 

[Kafka]

Heat is not something that can be trapped, and heat is not something that can somehow escape. You should learn what heat is.


Did you say that this is the best summary you could find? It's gibberish. You should have called boooooolsch't, not immediately regurgitated it.

Air density is irrelevant to Earth's radiance.


Nope. You should be embarrassed for having posted this nonsense.


This is true, but we're discussing Earth's radiance, not merely the atmosphere's radiance.


You should learn what constitutes Earth's surface. Just take a stab. What is it?

You aren't arguing with me....you are arguing with NASA. If you honestly think you are smarter than the folks at NASA I have a very sad bit of news for you.

You seem to be on here playing a stupid game of just gainsaying whatever you see without thinking. Sure you lard it with a lot of "Trashtalk" but any of us with actual science degrees can see through it.

Just so ya know. You aren't fooling the people who actually know science. You just aren't.

 

[ZenMode]

I'll take that as a "no," that you have no point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature.

Let's try this a different way..

We agree that energy radiates from the Earth at whatever rate it is going to.

We know, if not for the Earth's atmosphere, the daily low temperature would be significantly lower than it is with the Earth's atmosphere.

Why is that? What does the Earth's atmosphere do that prevents the extreme low temperatures?

I mean, come on. You claim to be the science guy. Why can't you explain this?

 

[IBDaMann]

Ummmmm......what do you think is causing the effect in refraction of which you speak?

Convection causes the refraction.

Yeah, that would be HOT air vs cooler air.

Both ZenMode and you were stupid for thinking that heat is somehow visible.

1. Refraction is visible. Refraction is not heat.
2. Refraction is not energy leaving Earth's surface. Learn what Earth's surface is.

The speed of light you are referencing is in a vacuu

Nope. The speed of light I reference is its speed given it's medium.

So the light already passing through the atmosphere is slowed to less than the speed of light. (It slows in water as well, which is why you see refraction in water!)

Dishonesty. Prior to the release of greenhouse gas, light already travels at the speed of light in the atmosphere. When greenhouse gas is released, both ZenMode and you insist that light is somehow SLOWED. Please explain what you think you mean by that.

Temperatures on Mercury are extreme.

Most people speculate that Mercury has widely varying daytime and nighttime temperatures.

During the day, temperatures on the surface can reach 800 degrees Fahrenheit (430 degrees Celsius).

Nobody has taken a thermometer to Mercury, much less to every part of Mercury.

Because the planet has no atmosphere to retain that heat,

Heat is not something that can be trapped/retained/contained. Learn what heat is.

 

[Kafka]

Convection causes the refraction.

And what causes convection? Any ideas?

Nope. The speed of light I reference is its speed given it's medium.

That isn't how it read. But if you need to save face I'll understand

Dishonesty. Prior to the release of greenhouse gas, light already travels at the speed of light in the atmosphere. When greenhouse gas is released, both ZenMode and you insist that light is somehow SLOWED. Please explain what you think you mean by that.

Actually no one is really talking about the speed of light in this conversation except you and it really doesn't relate to the larger topic. So you go ahead and blather on about this. We can wait if you want to talk about global climate change.

Heat is not something that can be trapped/retained/contained. Learn what heat is.

Heat is something that can be absorbed. Sorry you deny science. IR photons (sensible heat) are absobed by greenhouse gases. If you don't know that you are about 150 years too late to the game since we've known this fact for that long if not longer.

 

[IBDaMann]

And what causes convection? Any ideas?

Stay focused. The correct response from you should have been "Yes, IBDaMann, heat is not visible.". The correct answer is not to engage in an endless cause->effect chain that leads to the Big Bang being ultimately responsible.

Actually no one is really talking about the speed of light in this conversation except you

Pay attention. If you're not going to follow along then politely drop out.

At issue is ZenMode's assertion that light is further slowed by greenhouse gas. It's a stupid assertion, but perhaps you have some relevant insight to share.

and it really doesn't relate to the larger topic.

Pay attention. It's the larger topic, specifically the 2nd egregious physics violation I mention in my signature.

If ZenMode is not representing your religion well, you should talk to him about it, not pretend that no one is making the arguments and claims he is making. That's just stupid. Anyone can go read his posts and see that you are being an idiot out of solidarity.

Heat is something that can be absorbed.

Nope. Sorry you deny science

IR photons (sensible heat) are absobed by greenhouse gases.

IR photons are not heat .

Perhaps ZenMode and you should consider letting me teach you the science you need to know on this topic.

 

[Kafka]

Stay focused. The correct response from you should have been "Yes, IBDaMann, heat is not visible.". The correct answer is not to engage in an endless cause->effect chain that leads to the Big Bang being ultimately responsible.


Pay attention. If you're not going to follow along then politely drop out.

At issue is ZenMode's assertion that light is further slowed by greenhouse gas. It's a stupid assertion, but perhaps you have some relevant insight to share.


Pay attention. It's the larger topic, specifically the 2nd egregious physics violation I mention in my signature.

If ZenMode is not representing your religion well, you should talk to him about it, not pretend that no one is making the arguments and claims he is making. That's just stupid. Anyone can go read his posts and see that you are being an idiot out of solidarity.


Nope. Sorry you deny science


IR photons are not heat .

Perhaps ZenMode and you should consider letting me teach you the science you need to know on this topic.

How do you do this? You make a big post and get nearly everything wrong. It's amazing.

You'd almost have to be really good at science to know how to get literally 99% of everything you say WRONG. A moron would accidentally stumble and say something correct from time to time. But you never do. How is that????

 

[ZenMode]

I'll take that as a "no," that you have no point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature.

Let's try this a different way..

We agree that energy radiates from the Earth at whatever rate it is going to.

We know, if not for the Earth's atmosphere, the daily low temperature would be significantly lower than it is with the Earth's atmosphere.

Why is that? What does the Earth's atmosphere do that prevents the extreme low temperatures?

I mean, come on. You claim to be the science guy. Why can't you explain this?

Nothing from the *educated", science guy?

 

[IBDaMann]

Nothing from the *educated", science guy?

So, that's a solid. "no."

 

[ZenMode]

So, that's a solid. "no."

How long do you plan to avoid the question?

We agree that energy radiates from the Earth at whatever rate it is going to.

We know, if not for the Earth's atmosphere, the daily low temperature would be significantly lower than it is with the Earth's atmosphere.

Why is that? What does the Earth's atmosphere do that prevents the extreme low temperatures?

I mean, come on. You claim to be the science guy. Why can't you explain this?

 

[IBDaMann]

How long do you plan to avoid the question?

I have answered all your questions.

We agree that energy radiates from the Earth at whatever rate it is going to.

Wait. Do we agree? Earth's radiance adheres to Stefan-Boltzmann. Do you agree with that?

We know, if not for the Earth's atmosphere, the daily low temperature would be significantly lower than it is with the Earth's atmosphere.

Are you saying that you acknowledge that an atmosphere brings daytime and nighttime temperatures closer together by more evenly distributing the existing quantity of thermal energy, while maintaining the exact same average planetary equilibrium temperature?

Why is that?

A combination of thermodynamics and black body science.

What does the Earth's atmosphere do that prevents the extreme low temperatures?

Are you asking what an atmosphere does to more evenly distribute the existing quantity of thermal energy and bring daytime and nighttime temperatures closer together, while maintaining the exact same average planetary equilibrium temperature?

I mean, come on. You claim to be the science guy.

Remember, I claim that you are the scientifically illiterate guy. There is a difference.

Why can't you explain this?

I can't explain an unintelligible question. All I ever get in response is "I never said this" and "No one is claiming that."

 

[IBDaMann]

You make a big post and get nearly everything wrong.

Nothing specific, I see. When everything is wrong, nothing is wrong.

Your king is tipped ... again.

 

[IBDaMann]

Nothing from the *educated", science guy?

I'll take that as concurrence that you have no point to make about Earth's average global equilibrium temperature.

 

[Kafka]

Nothing specific, I see. When everything is wrong, nothing is wrong.

Your king is tipped ... again.

The lonely house-bound "day trader/gamer" is more educated on this topic than NASA. Imagine how far we would be if only IBDaMann could get that crucial first job!

 

[IBDaMann]

The lonely house-bound "day trader/gamer" is more educated on this topic than NASA.

Yes. NASA is a government bureacracy that manages contracts. NASA contracts out to private commercial contractors for all science, engineering, math and research support. NASA contracts out to people like me to provide support. There are no NASA scientists; there are only commercial sector scientists who are paid from NASA funds to provide the support needed.

Now the ball is in your court to bring one of these NASA "scientists" to JPP to argue your position so I can pick him apart.

Let me know when he arrives.

 

[ZenMode]

Are you saying that you acknowledge that an atmosphere brings daytime and nighttime temperatures closer together by more evenly distributing the existing quantity of thermal energy, while maintaining the exact same average planetary equilibrium temperature?


A combination of thermodynamics and black body science.

Yes, it brings daytime and nighttime temperatures closer together. One component of that is the atmosphere stopping some of the suns energy from getting to the earth’s surface. The other part is that it “distributes” thermal energy as it leaves the earth’s surface.

What components of the atmosphere perform this function.