Did you ever get an Apology?

Did you ever receive an Apology?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 9 100.0%
  • Total voters
    9
Darla said:
Have you read about his life? Like most men who make history, his was a complex character. He was a man who, as a doctor, tended fiercely to wounded enemies, and who as a revolutionary, signed death warrants for hundreds of people without any trial.

I am curious as to what the people in Cuba said about the desperate poverty, the sickness, the children dying of starvation and lack of medical care, that inspired Che to the path he followed?

Because they were real, and they still exist in this world.
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Wow. That probably doubled my knowledge of Che. Thanks.

I'm going to get on Encarta, and read up about him.
 
Darla said:
I understand what you are saying Beefy, and I am not trying to paint present-day Cuba as a "paradise". What I am saying is that it was no paradise before the revolution either, and that it was either the same, or worse.

Also, I doubt that public opinion in Cuba is monolithic, any moreso than it is anywhere else. You know, we do tend to find backup for what we already believe, which explains why neocons only seemed to stumble across disaffected Iraqis, and were convinced we'd be greeted with candy.

Anyway, the man cared, and he put his life on the line everyday to try and help the poorest of the poor, and those who suffered the most. So I think that to curse his name, then I would ask, well, what have you done for the poor today? Not YOU, YOU, but I am speaking generally here. So don't go Damo on me. ;) I don't know what he would have thought of Castro's Cuba had he lived, and even whether or not he would have broken with Castro. No one does. I can only judge his actions, and his motivations when he was alive. I think his motivations were pure, and his actions, mixed.
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I totally agree that his intentions were pure. Most radical idealists are that way. But the trouble is, that when the intentions are that pure and the passion is that high, things happen, and goals are acheived by any means necessary, any means. And that almost always leads to violence and oppression.

The only difference was that it took Batista's violence, corruption and oppression, and transferred it to Castro's violence, corruption and oppression. Batista's oppression was merely a vehicle that the revolutionaries used to sell their own brand of the same shit.

Che Geuvara is all over Cuba. His face all over the place, pictures of him all over the hotel Nacional (I'll post a picture of me next to that picture later :D), but talk to the people in a candid fashion, and there is deep, deep resentment.
 
Beefy said:
Well, from my experience, and the opinions of most Cuban Americans, there is very real anti-socialist and anti Castro sentiment among them.

I will say this though, had the US lifted its embargo when it became glaringly, painfully obvious that it only hurt the Cuban people and helped keep that motherfucker Castro in power, it wouldn't have gone on this long. So long as the people are kept starving, they are powerless, and I think trade with the US would have resulted in Castro's demise years ago.

That being said, the Cubans are not very fond of their way of life. Prisoners in this country have pretty decent healthcare as well. But it sure as shit not worth the trade off.
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Don't embargoes and sanctions always hurt the people, and not the government? We've killed a lot of people with sanctions.
 
Beefy said:
I totally agree that his intentions were pure. Most radical idealists are that way. But the trouble is, that when the intentions are that pure and the passion is that high, things happen, and goals are acheived by any means necessary, any means. And that almost always leads to violence and oppression.

The only difference was that it took Batista's violence, corruption and oppression, and transferred it to Castro's violence, corruption and oppression. Batista's oppression was merely a vehicle that the revolutionaries used to sell their own brand of the same shit.

Che Geuvara is all over Cuba. His face all over the place, pictures of him all over the hotel Nacional (I'll post a picture of me next to that picture later :D), but talk to the people in a candid fashion, and there is deep, deep resentment.
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I don't feel I know enough about Castro's Cuba to really comment one way or the other on this. I haven't been there as you have, and I only know what my own government tells me. Which is to say, I really only have propoganda to go on.
 
Beefy said:
Alright. I can dig that. I was just curious. Having been to Cuba and seeing his posters and monuments everywhere, all the while the people I talked to resented his blind idealism that led to what it did.... Well, you know.

Shit man, I'm a libertarian. I had to ask. ;)
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Beefy, your lucky I just picked Che. Only the fairly well-informed know about him. And being well-informed rules out most NeoCons. I did briefly consider putting Hugo Chavez in my avatar. For the comedic factor alone. But, I decided I couldn't deal with the legal or medical liability: it might have given the few remaining bush worshippers on the board a heart attack or stroke ;)
 
Cypress said:
Beefy, your lucky I just picked Che. Only the fairly well-informed know about him. And being well-informed rules out most NeoCons. I did briefly consider putting Hugo Chavez in my avatar. For the comedic factor alone. But, I decided I couldn't deal with the legal or medical liability: it might have given the few remaining bush worshippers on the board a heart attack or stroke ;)
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Right. I didn't say anything because I believed you chose Che because of his controversial visage and believed that some libertarian would jump on you over his activities.
 
Beefy said:
Well, from my experience, and the opinions of most Cuban Americans, there is very real anti-socialist and anti Castro sentiment among them.
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Cuban-Americans are not Cubans. They woubd be an exceedingly poor -- i.e. badly biased -- sample of Cuban opinion.

These are the ex-pats. Naturally they dislike Castro, since they're the ones who elected to leave.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Cuban-Americans are not Cubans. They woubd be an exceedingly poor -- i.e. badly biased -- sample of Cuban opinion.

These are the ex-pats. Naturally they dislike Castro, since they're the ones who elected to leave.
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He also dealt with it in Cuba. Were those people not representative of Cubans?
 
Damocles said:
He also dealt with it in Cuba. Were those people not representative of Cubans?
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Statistically speaking, no, they weren't. No one individual's personal contacts ever are. I've met more than a few Cubans who like Castro a lot, in the main. They make jokes about him, but who doesn't? My experience is no more statistically valid than Beefy's, however. By most objective measures, Cubans are better off than people in many Central and South American nations.

Really, there's not much meat for argument here. Castro's neither a god nor a devil, I think. There have been far better rulers but also far worse ones. You want a communist devil look no further than Stalin or Pol Pot.

Since Beefy's already stipulated that he doesn't support extending the embargo, we got nothin' but bun. ;)
 
Beefy said:
Well, from my experience, and the opinions of most Cuban Americans, there is very real anti-socialist and anti Castro sentiment among them.

I will say this though, had the US lifted its embargo when it became glaringly, painfully obvious that it only hurt the Cuban people and helped keep that motherfucker Castro in power, it wouldn't have gone on this long. So long as the people are kept starving, they are powerless, and I think trade with the US would have resulted in Castro's demise years ago.

That being said, the Cubans are not very fond of their way of life. Prisoners in this country have pretty decent healthcare as well. But it sure as shit not worth the trade off.
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I don't doubt that there's a lot of cubans who aren't fond of their way of life. I've traveled in south america, and there's a LOT of destitute and poor people who aren't fond of their way of life.

I don't doubt that Castro's Cuba has a history of political oppression. And decades ago, they certainly tried to forment guerilla movements in africa and latin america.

But, I simply don't see the reason now, for unilaterally picking out cuba as this unprecedented scourge on humanity. Certainly the rightwing dictators of latin america (who we supported) were equally, if not more, appalling in their treatment of their own people as Castro has been. And I suspect popular support for those rightwing and neo-fascist dictators in latin america has been substanitally less, than support for Castro in Cuba. Many of those rightwing dictatorships got overthrown by populist movements, even though the regimes had support from the united states. In contrast, Cuba's government has survived for half a century, despite our best efforts to undermine them.

This isn't an apology for castro. It's a simple compilation of facts, as I know them.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Statistically speaking, no, they weren't. No one individual's personal contacts ever are. I've met more than a few Cubans who like Castro a lot, in the main. They make jokes about him, but who doesn't? My experience is no more statistically valid than Beefy's, however. By most objective measures, Cubans are better off than people in many Central and South American nations.

Really, there's not much meat for argument here. Castro's neither a god nor a devil, I think. There have been far better rulers but also far worse ones. You want a communist devil look no further than Stalin or Pol Pot.

Since Beefy's already stipulated that he doesn't support extending the embargo, we got nothin' but bun. ;)
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I wouldn't support the embargo anyway. Embargoes are inhumane, they unjustly punish the citizen for the actions of the supposed government they are meant to "punish".
 
Damocles said:
I wouldn't support the embargo anyway. Embargoes are inhumane, they unjustly punish the citizen for the actions of the supposed government they are meant to "punish".
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It seems we can all agree on this point. I wonder then, why do we have them?
 
Cypress said:
Florida's critical electoral votes.

Thank you for playing another exciting round of "Simple Answers to Simple Questions!" ;)
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No, I know about that group of bitter exes over in Florida. But I mean, in general. Look at how many Iraqi children our sanctions killed, but no one ever talks about it, and you have to go to a place like this to even find people who are friggin aware of it.
 
Darla said:
No, I know about that group of bitter exes over in Florida. But I mean, in general. Look at how many Iraqi children our sanctions killed, but no one ever talks about it, and you have to go to a place like this to even find people who are friggin aware of it.
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Oh, right. I'm thinking you have to look at it on a case by case basis. Certainly, sanctions of south africa's apartheid regime probably hurt a lot of black africans. But, my understanding is that black south africans were overwhelmingly in favor of sanctions, and willing to suffer, to undermine the regime that was oppressing them.

Also, "sanctions" is a pretty broad term. Certainly food, medical, and humanitarian assistance shouldn't be used as a tool to punish innocent people. On the other hand, there may well be good reason to sanction regims like North Korea with respect to military technology and dual use industrial equipment.
 
not once...in fact, most of the assholes who called me a traitor still call me that today.

I would giggle at most of their obitiuaries.
 
Damocles said:
I wouldn't support the embargo anyway. Embargoes are inhumane, they unjustly punish the citizen for the actions of the supposed government they are meant to "punish".
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Embargoes are a constructive and legitimate tool of international trade. Embargoing slave goods could put an end to the profitability of slave labor.

If slave labor is the only option in a country, maybe we should side with the people and overthrow the government, put our guns where our mouths are, instead of allowing the slave labor lords to become fat and happy, and profitting ourselves from the atrocity. The current state of trade with china is a sick atrocity.
 
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Darla said:
It fills with steam? I'd have to be unconcious for sure then. Did you like being in Cuba? Did you go alone?
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Let's just say we didn't fly Cubana arilines back to Mexico. We took Aero Carribe. We were sitting in the plane, it was hot and humid as hell, and then once the pilot kicked the plane into high gear for takeoff, the AC kicked on and started blowing really cold air into the cabin, and the whole thing filled up with steam. We didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

I went with a couple of guys I've known my entire life. And I would go back. Its a very interesting country, the women are beautiful, the people friendly, and your dollar (now illegal) goes a long way. I would recommend it, but bring Euro's, not dollars now.
 
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