Dishonest Women

christiefan915 said:
There's no doubt that some women play dishonest games with men. I know my gender. I hope he give some particulars.
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Well, don't both sides play dishonest games? To say it is inherent in one and not the other is patently dishonest. Poor bloke having all of these women hitting on him in his 20s. Oh the humanity
 
Teflon Don said:
Well, don't both sides play dishonest games? To say it is inherent in one and not the other is patently dishonest. Poor bloke having all of these women hitting on him in his 20s. Oh the humanity
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I agree both play games but was trying to stay within SD's statement "Also please miss me with the "men do it too" that shit is a given but I'm mostly referring to women who claim to be honest but aren't."

Thing is, women LOVE posts like the OP. We LOVE talking about emotions, relationships, honesty, game-playing and problems. We'll spend hours teasing out every single detail and parsing it down to its essence. We'll list the pros and cons, we'll comfort, advise or chastise as the situation demands.

Men hate this. Men get all cringe-y and start making noises about "whininess" or "turning in your man card." Men start by saying "suck it up", women say that when all else fails.

I expect Sunny knew what he was in for when he posted the thread and isn't surprised at the comments. Now I have to go and give him my expert opinion on his issue. :)
 
Sun Devil said:
Here is the most honest thing I could say and believe and I know I'm not alone in this because a lot of men share the same perdicament. Why are women so fucking dishonest? I'll admit I get hit on by a lot of younger chicks. Like early 20's and as young as 18 which is kinda cool but I'm a very straight up blunt person but I notice women aren't yet a lot of women perpetrate that they're honest but I find out they're not. What the FAQ? Any ideas people? Also please miss me with the "men do it too" that shit is a given but I'm mostly referring to women who claim to be honest but aren't.
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The first thing that struck me was your comment about getting hit on by girls from 18 to the early 20s. I'm sure you get hit on by women older than that also but you commented on the young ones.

You are in your early 30s, intelligent, funny, IMO easy-going, highly educated and employed. You have a lot to bring to the table. Why are you even giving teenaged girls the time of day? They don't have anything in common with you even down to basics such as life experience. Not all, but many girls in that age range are flighty and indecisive. They may be in "every night's a party" mode. They may be playing the field or changing out boyfriends like you change clothes. You didn't say what makes them dishonest. Maybe all you're looking for right now is a casual relationship and when you were straight up about it the girl said "okay" but inside she was thinking "I'm the one that can change his mind." Or it could be the opposite, you want more, they want less.

It's hard to say without more info. Desh had some awesome insights in her response. We don't know what kind of relationship you're actually looking for at the moment. My number one suggestion is that you try and find someone who's your intellectual equal. Anything else might be fun in the short-term but will probably not go the distance, if long-term is what you're aiming for.

It goes without saying that if you and the women are mainly interested in casual dating/sex, all bets are off!
 
cawacko said:
Sun Devil, you already know that to be a Trojan means many haters will follow. But yeah, I can only think to understand a successful black man in your position and what some women may say to you. Ultimately you will know when the right woman comes into your life.
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That sounds too much like right. It's frustrating man because the age bracket and the the upbringing makes it hard.
 
christiefan915 said:
Can you give an example so we know where to start?
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I can give you several.

One woman has 1 child and she flirts with me but doesn't want to pursue anything because she is too tied up with her "baby daddy" yet she makes an attempt to tell me I'm so cute and handsome but makes not attempt to capitalize on dating me....Her reason?

"Um, because I still love my child's father..."

My response: Well "Bitch why the fuck do you flirt and talk about you can see my dick through my pants in the first place?"

Of course I didn't say that but that is what I was thinking. Excuse my bluntness...
 
christiefan915 said:
The first thing that struck me was your comment about getting hit on by girls from 18 to the early 20s. I'm sure you get hit on by women older than that also but you commented on the young ones.

You are in your early 30s, intelligent, funny, IMO easy-going, highly educated and employed. You have a lot to bring to the table. Why are you even giving teenaged girls the time of day? They don't have anything in common with you even down to basics such as life experience. Not all, but many girls in that age range are flighty and indecisive. They may be in "every night's a party" mode. They may be playing the field or changing out boyfriends like you change clothes. You didn't say what makes them dishonest. Maybe all you're looking for right now is a casual relationship and when you were straight up about it the girl said "okay" but inside she was thinking "I'm the one that can change his mind." Or it could be the opposite, you want more, they want less.

It's hard to say without more info. Desh had some awesome insights in her response. We don't know what kind of relationship you're actually looking for at the moment. My number one suggestion is that you try and find someone who's your intellectual equal. Anything else might be fun in the short-term but will probably not go the distance, if long-term is what you're aiming for.

It goes without saying that if you and the women are mainly interested in casual dating/sex, all bets are off!
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You've missed your calling, you should have been an agony aunt!

http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/love-sex/irma-kurtz-cosmos-agony-aunt
 
Sun Devil said:
I can give you several.

One woman has 1 child and she flirts with me but doesn't want to pursue anything because she is too tied up with her "baby daddy" yet she makes an attempt to tell me I'm so cute and handsome but makes not attempt to capitalize on dating me....Her reason?

"Um, because I still love my child's father..."

My response: Well "Bitch why the fuck do you flirt and talk about you can see my dick through my pants in the first place?"

Of course I didn't say that but that is what I was thinking. Excuse my bluntness...
Click to expand...

This might be part of your problem right here. I never think about women in those terms or even in these underlying paradigms. But that is just me. I know there are plenty of men here who do and who say even worse things about the women they know and think about. I had a long talk on Friday with my boss who is an educated black man with a college degree and a lot going for him, and as a Black man in America in his early forties a lot going against him as well. And we talked for over an hour about relations with the opposite sex based on a new book I am reading by Estelle B. Freedman called Redefining Rape: Sexual Violence in the Era of Suffrage and Segregation (2013). And he made some similar comments about women who flirt with him in the context of his own inadequacies around socializing and talking with women. I mostly listened because he was talking about women dressing like whores and such and saying that such women were enticing men and men were not to be blamed i they got so excited by these clothing that they couldn't control themselves and so on. A conversation that I kept insisting was irrelevant because rape is rape and no means no and women should have the right to wear anything they feel comfortable in and so on probably to no avail. I can't say for sure. We have had many long discussions around different complex issues and mostly I understand his position but I don't always know how to respond because I know him well enough by now to have formulated some opinions on his particular and individual life experiences, which in some ways are not that much different than my own, except that he was a black man growing up as one of only two young black men in a quietly racist small town in America, that is, a place in the North where the water fountains didn't say Black and White but the daughters and their parents most certainly did! At the end of this conversation, or sometime in the middle of it, I became aware of just how important it is to somehow break through the idea that somehow men and women are different.

I don't know that women are that different from men. I haven't found it so, but it took a long time for me to come to that realization. Certainly our misogynistic society spends most of it's energy and propaganda from about the age of birth on, trying to make us believe this difference is natural and great. And that women are somehow inferior to men and that this inferiority is natural as well. But is it? A good part of feminist literature is devoted to the notion that whatever actual natural differences there are between the genders is nothing more than a social construct that makes it appear that we are somehow so different that the gap is unbridgeable and that even if the more enlightened men among us realize and accept gender equality, a fairly recent idea after all, that we can never really understand as Freud put it, "What women want!" But this is bullshit.

Most women if you ask them can tell you quite clearly what they want. My best friend is a bright, articulate, and incredibly marvelous and wondrous personality who says it succinctly, "I want peace, love, and happiness." I don't think that is all that different from what most men, who can get past the commodification of everything in a society that privileges wealth and toys above the basic emotional needs that we all have, want if they deign to think about it at all or articulate it. It is certainly similar to what I want. There isn't anything material there, at least on its face, it is all emotional and yet extremely difficult to secure in a postmodern world where the commodification of everything makes such ideas seem nearly foreign: as if peace could be purchased in old age in the form of a mountain retreat near a babbling brook in the Catskills or the Cascades, when it is a state of mind and not something that can be bought or indemnified, and certainly nothing that can be secured once and for all.

A youthful, Walter Benjamin, writing in 1911--over a hundred years ago for the mathematically challenged--suggested that we are all similar and that we all individuals and as such are composed of masculine and feminine elements and that in fact there are no men and women at all. That such labels are cultural artifacts and that there has never been a feminine culture or a youth culture or anything other than a masculine culture so we know little about what women would do because we have never allowed them to do it. This makes some sense to me and shows itself in a variety of ways not the least of which is the fact that the most powerful women so far, women like Margaret Thatcher, have in fact gotten to the pinnacle of power in masculine culture by being masculine. And that when the United States finally has a woman president she too will demonstrate the characteristics that our culture recognizes as necessary for a particular type of socially constructed masculine leadership. This also goes for the women who are becoming CEOs, they have to fit a culturally established masculine stereotype to reach that pinnacle, as if they spend their whole careers unlearning the cultural position they were once relegated to and finally have to accept the formula and the form that the masculine world we are all ensconced in has determined matters and is rewarded. This too is bullshit. but it goes on unconsciously in many instances and produces all kinds of problems among women and women activists.

In short, if we can get past women as different and see them as individuals just like us, a model that everyone from Mary Wollstonecraft, Margaret Fuller, George Sand (Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin), and George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans) to Virginia Wolf and beyond have tried to deal with in different and individual ways, and start to read women authors and understand this as an important first step in the evolution of our own consciousnesses, whether men or women and then we might eventually after mush reading and reflection get to the point where we won't think of women as "bitches" at all but as our others and as our own completions and as our possible friends and relations who can be as uplifting and supportive of us as we should be of them. We cannot and will not get to understanding by commodifying our human relationships even though capitalism tells us we must, we get their by constantly going against the grain of culture and carefully unlearning all we know until we strip away all the shit and get to who we are and then reconstructing ourselves, which means our consciousnesses, in humanistic terms realizing that we need not material things but emotional connections to create the lives that we seek. And that isn't something most people have any experience in doing, so it is an individual project that each person can only do for themselves. And it doesn't happen overnight although in our need for immediacy we always think that it can. It takes years. Good luck!
 
Dantès said:
This might be part of your problem right here. I never think about women in those terms or even in these underlying paradigms. But that is just me. I know there are plenty of men here who do and who say even worse things about the women they know and think about. I had a long talk on Friday with my boss who is an educated black man with a college degree and a lot going for him, and as a Black man in America in his early forties a lot going against him as well. And we talked for over an hour about relations with the opposite sex based on a new book I am reading by Estelle B. Freedman called Redefining Rape: Sexual Violence in the Era of Suffrage and Segregation (2013). And he made some similar comments about women who flirt with him in the context of his own inadequacies around socializing and talking with women. I mostly listened because he was talking about women dressing like whores and such and saying that such women were enticing men and men were not to be blamed i they got so excited by these clothing that they couldn't control themselves and so on. A conversation that I kept insisting was irrelevant because rape is rape and no means no and women should have the right to wear anything they feel comfortable in and so on probably to no avail. I can't say for sure. We have had many long discussions around different complex issues and mostly I understand his position but I don't always know how to respond because I know him well enough by now to have formulated some opinions on his particular and individual life experiences, which in some ways are not that much different than my own, except that he was a black man growing up as one of only two young black men in a quietly racist small town in America, that is, a place in the North where the water fountains didn't say Black and White but the daughters and their parents most certainly did! At the end of this conversation, or sometime in the middle of it, I became aware of just how important it is to somehow break through the idea that somehow men and women are different.

I don't know that women are that different from men. I haven't found it so, but it took a long time for me to come to that realization. Certainly our misogynistic society spends most of it's energy and propaganda from about the age of birth on, trying to make us believe this difference is natural and great. And that women are somehow inferior to men and that this inferiority is natural as well. But is it? A good part of feminist literature is devoted to the notion that whatever actual natural differences there are between the genders is nothing more than a social construct that makes it appear that we are somehow so different that the gap is unbridgeable and that even if the more enlightened men among us realize and accept gender equality, a fairly recent idea after all, that we can never really understand as Freud put it, "What women want!" But this is bullshit.

Most women if you ask them can tell you quite clearly what they want. My best friend is a bright, articulate, and incredibly marvelous and wondrous personality who says it succinctly, "I want peace, love, and happiness." I don't think that is all that different from what most men, who can get past the commodification of everything in a society that privileges wealth and toys above the basic emotional needs that we all have, want if they deign to think about it at all or articulate it. It is certainly similar to what I want. There isn't anything material there, at least on its face, it is all emotional and yet extremely difficult to secure in a postmodern world where the commodification of everything makes such ideas seem nearly foreign: as if peace could be purchased in old age in the form of a mountain retreat near a babbling brook in the Catskills or the Cascades, when it is a state of mind and not something that can be bought or indemnified, and certainly nothing that can be secured once and for all.

A youthful, Walter Benjamin, writing in 1911--over a hundred years ago for the mathematically challenged--suggested that we are all similar and that we all individuals and as such are composed of masculine and feminine elements and that in fact there are no men and women at all. That such labels are cultural artifacts and that there has never been a feminine culture or a youth culture or anything other than a masculine culture so we know little about what women would do because we have never allowed them to do it. This makes some sense to me and shows itself in a variety of ways not the least of which is the fact that the most powerful women so far, women like Margaret Thatcher, have in fact gotten to the pinnacle of power in masculine culture by being masculine. And that when the United States finally has a woman president she too will demonstrate the characteristics that our culture recognizes as necessary for a particular type of socially constructed masculine leadership. This also goes for the women who are becoming CEOs, they have to fit a culturally established masculine stereotype to reach that pinnacle, as if they spend their whole careers unlearning the cultural position they were once relegated to and finally have to accept the formula and the form that the masculine world we are all ensconced in has determined matters and is rewarded. This too is bullshit. but it goes on unconsciously in many instances and produces all kinds of problems among women and women activists.

In short, if we can get past women as different and see them as individuals just like us, a model that everyone from Mary Wollstonecraft, Margaret Fuller, George Sand (Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin), and George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans) to Virginia Wolf and beyond have tried to deal with in different and individual ways, and start to read women authors and understand this as an important first step in the evolution of our own consciousnesses, whether men or women and then we might eventually after mush reading and reflection get to the point where we won't think of women as "bitches" at all but as our others and as our own completions and as our possible friends and relations who can be as uplifting and supportive of us as we should be of them. We cannot and will not get to understanding by commodifying our human relationships even though capitalism tells us we must, we get their by constantly going against the grain of culture and carefully unlearning all we know until we strip away all the shit and get to who we are and then reconstructing ourselves, which means our consciousnesses, in humanistic terms realizing that we need not material things but emotional connections to create the lives that we seek. And that isn't something most people have any experience in doing, so it is an individual project that each person can only do for themselves. And it doesn't happen overnight although in our need for immediacy we always think that it can. It takes years. Good luck!
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Sweet Jesus, what a pompous windbag!!
 
Sun Devil said:
Here is the most honest thing I could say and believe and I know I'm not alone in this because a lot of men share the same perdicament. Why are women so fucking dishonest? I'll admit I get hit on by a lot of younger chicks. Like early 20's and as young as 18 which is kinda cool but I'm a very straight up blunt person but I notice women aren't yet a lot of women perpetrate that they're honest but I find out they're not. What the FAQ? Any ideas people? Also please miss me with the "men do it too" that shit is a given but I'm mostly referring to women who claim to be honest but aren't.
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That strikes me as being a particularly niave question SD.
 
Sun Devil said:
I can give you several.

One woman has 1 child and she flirts with me but doesn't want to pursue anything because she is too tied up with her "baby daddy" yet she makes an attempt to tell me I'm so cute and handsome but makes not attempt to capitalize on dating me....Her reason?

"Um, because I still love my child's father..."

My response: Well "Bitch why the fuck do you flirt and talk about you can see my dick through my pants in the first place?"

Of course I didn't say that but that is what I was thinking. Excuse my bluntness...
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she is likely fishing for sexual compliments her self.


Maybe her "baby daddy " doesn't praise her enough in the relationship for her statisfaction.


some women don't understand just how much men think with their dicks at certain ages.


My suggestion for you is to concentrate on compatibility more in your next foray into the world of chicks and try to place a little less concentration on fuckability.


Fucking is great but at some point you are talking more than fucking in a relationship.
 
No way men don't lie way more!
The only two Trojans here are un or under employed! Hmm

As a former mixologist in a playboy to 50 club, I hold the key to woman.
 
The Dude said:
No way men don't lie way more!
The only two Trojans here are un or under employed! Hmm

As a former mixologist in a playboy to 50 club, I hold the key to woman.
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gee dude you really know shallow women.


maybe there are better places to meet smart and honest women than a playboy club?

yeah think?
 
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