PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
???...how so....the prodigal son finally recognized that things hadn't been so bad at home and returned.....the father accepted him back with love....how does that go against my analogy?.....
Does everyone start out an atheist?
- Thread starter uscitizen
- Start date
???...how so....the prodigal son finally recognized that things hadn't been so bad at home and returned.....the father accepted him back with love....how does that go against my analogy?.....
The Prodigal son "returned" to a party that the son who remained never would get. The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left, not the group that "loved him because they wanted to love him".
Anyway, "It's in the scriptures" is not a logical argument, nor is the extension of it, "The Bible says he does this and therefore it is true."
Neither one of these are a logical argument, it is an argument of faith and not logic.
There is no logical reason for such a Deity to act as he does in the Bible, other than the extension where humans anthropomorphized the deity. As a matter of faith you are well-documented, as a matter of logic, you have yet to offer any logical argument.
So far your argument has been, "Well, I'd feel mad if my dog played with the neighbor." "Well, it says in the Bible he gets mad." and "If my kid went next door and claimed the man there to be daddy, I'd be willing to send him to hell for eternity because he chose not to love me and I warned him, so why wouldn't God be willing to do that."
None of these are logical arguments all of them are arguments from faith.
And lastly, most of the people in that chosen group did not "choose" anything. They were simply the beneficiaries of the lucky-sperm club. Unless they were born of the same sperm from a servant and became Arabs.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
I think we are experiencing a turn around here.....there are issues of faith/logic with respect to what I choose to believe about God, but that isn't the issue we are discussing.....
we are discussing the deity's motivation for taking a particular act.....his action wouldn't be based upon faith, either his or mine....
you say the deity's action is illogical.....how so....would it not be logical for a father to choose to not favor a child who refused to acknowledge his very existence?.....if I have a client who comes in to write a will and he says "I choose to leave nothing to my second son because he has not come to see me in thirty years" do I say that isn't logical, you should leave him an equal share anyway?.....
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
but the prodigal son didn't get the most....
Luke 15: 28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'
31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Is it insecure to want to be loved?
This is silliness. I bring up the story because the dude was not severally punished like in your first instance and your answer is, "He didn't get the most!"
Ugh. You keep moving the bar and stupidly so...
The story of the Prodigal son was only brought up as an aside pointing out your black/white inanity of your poor analogy.
I will say it one more time slowly for you.
"The Bible says so." Is in no way a logical argument at any moment in time. It does nothing to advance your claim that any God has a logical reason to want constant affirmation and praise. It is as logical as bringing up the demands of Zeus, or Odin, or any other Pagan entity. While you may believe it is Truth (and I fully respect you for that), it is not an argument from logic, it is 100% an argument from Faith.
"This is The One True God and his Bible says so it must be logical" will never be a logical argument, it hasn't been yet, it will not be throughout the rest of your life, it is based in Faith only.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
dude!.....first of all, the prodigal son isn't an example of my first instance....it's an example of the opposite....the prodigal son came back....second, the only reason I referred to the most was your statement "The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left"....the statement wasn't true, so I pointed it out.....
then it was a major fail on your point.....it reinforced my point instead of contradicting it....
/sigh....dude, you're out in left field counting dandelions in the middle of a game....."The Bible says so" isn't my logical argument... God's reason isn't "the Bible said so"....I'm not arguing that you need to believe it because the Bible says it.....the only reason "the bible says so" even got into this conversation was my comment that whatever his reasons, the bible stated that God demanded worship.....
One more time. As he left he got his inheritance, not a swift kick into a fiery pit, it is not an example of your "point", it is opposite to it. And it still isn't an instance of logical information. At best it shows an emotive, not a rational reason for a Deity to want that kind of stuff, or even to play the lucky sperm game with one group.
In the Prodigal son, the one who left had already gotten his inheritance, saying that the other son gets what is left is still only his portion "He gets more" is not an example of your story. In that one the Father did not act like God who will simply put you into the pit.
You keep mistaking, "God said so!" for reason. It isn't logic to keep repeating another story from the Bible any more than it would be for me to keep repeating stories from Greek Mythology, or Zoroastrianism, or any other Faith. Seriously. "God wants praise because if He doesn't get it he'll come down as a cow and sleep with your mom and make you into a minotaur"... We know he will because we read the story.
No matter how many times you try to use it as a "logical reason" for a Deity to want constant affirmation and praise it will not suddenly become a logical argument to say, "God told me so." It is always, and will always be, a story of Faith, not of logic.
No matter how many times you try to use it as a "logical reason" for a Deity to want constant affirmation and praise it will not suddenly become a logical argument to say, "God told me so." It is always, and will always be, a story of Faith, not of logic.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
uh, dude....I didnt' bring up any stories from the Bible.....you did....I'm the guy with the dog and the kid living with the neighbor, remember?.....
/shakes his head....do me a favor.....link me to the post where you think I used "God told me so" as a logical argument.....you are waaaaaaaay out in left field on this.....
So you are saying you have not used any bible verses in this discussion of ours, now throughout several threads? That is what I refer to as "God told me so." You even defended it, upset that I would point out that Bible stories are not logic, upset that you couldn't use Bible verses in your analogies.
Then you aren't participating in this conversation and have simply buttressed my argument. I am speaking of worship in the way that you read about it in the Bible, the Torah, the Q'uran... What reason would such a deity need constant devotions, and why would a being that knows everything require the psychic communication with it that is called prayer?
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
I am saying I did not use any Bible verses as a "the bible tells me so" substitute for a logical argument.....that's a lot different from examining the bible to see what it says about a matter in question....especially when the matter in question is something the bible is specifically about, like YHWH......
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
wait a minute.....what are you saying worship is?......like 24/7 prayer?....where do you even find an example of that in the Bible......look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden....he stopped by and talked to them.......
No, I am not saying that worship is 24/7 prayer, try again, this is a form of the reductionism fallacy called a straw man. (And BTW, I see you using scripture again...)
Worship is the constant affirmation of the greatness of God, prayer is the communication you have with Him. And God doesn't do the direct thing any longer and hasn't since Genesis, because man became too corrupted and He could no longer abide them. All communication (until Christ) was always through other means, burning bushes, etc. Or simply direct psychic communication.
My question was why would an all-knowing God need prayer to be told of your needs?
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Because otherwise you get lazy and uncaring.
How would psychic communication where no direct answers are possible make me any less lazy?
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
You stop praying and worshipping, and soon you start taking everything for granted and ignoring your faith.
Its like people who hit the gym up for a month and then stop going...
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
poor thing....how will you ever cope.....
he doesn't.....why shouldn't he expect us to communicate if we want something....
I see, this is somewhat logical, but why would god care if you were "lazy" in worship? This continues back to why would god want you to worship him at all? Why would God need or want the constant affirmation? My faith "muscle" notwithstanding, why would god care if you believed at all?