Education and Politics

Is a good idea, but difficult in the U.S., it would involve tracking kids at an early age, and there aren’t many American parents who want their child to labeled as less than capable. Besides, with the Unions diminished, many of those trades don’t offer the financial benefits they once did and are less attractive

I agree that in the U.S. parents would not care for the German system. Kids who perform well academically are steered towards university prep while still in h.s., while kids who don't perform as well are steered towards the trades.
 
Is a good idea, but difficult in the U.S., it would involve tracking kids at an early age, and there aren’t many American parents who want their child to labeled as less than capable. Besides, with the Unions diminished, many of those trades don’t offer the financial benefits they once did and are less attractive

There are all kinds of trade jobs that pay six figures. I know this board is full of millionaires but for a lot of 'regular folk' I don't think making $100K is all that bad.

The real problem with discussions like this is it all revolves how do people vote. Then as partisans we decide we like better those who vote like we do. But if people actually put that sh*t aside, not every kid is cut out for college nor does every kid have to go to college. People can forge their own paths in life and live healthy and fulfilling lives without a college degree (and the massive amount of debt it can take to achieve).

Edit: I guess I could be considered somewhat of a hypocrite because if you ask my five year old what she's going to do at 18 she'll tell you go to USC. (I don't tell her this but I'd let her go to Stanford if she were accepted.) So I couldn't fathom her not going to college short of her dropping out because she was some amazing entrepreneur. But on the whole not every kid has to go that path.
 
That's because "higher" education has changed. Today, many go to college only to get thoroughly stupid studying under radical Leftist, crazy, whack-a-doodle professors. They attain a level of stupidity not found in nature by the time they graduate. So, nothing really has changed. Idiots are still voting Democrat.
That's certainly been a common talking point among right-wingers, eager to explain away the strong correlation between educated societies and left-leaning societies. But one fascinating thing about the phenomenon is that it existed even before the correlation held true at the individual level.

For example, as recently as the 2012 election, Republicans were doing better with those individuals who have college degrees. Romney won 53% of college graduates, and Obama won just 43%. Yet, even as that correlation favored Republicans at the individual level, it favored Democrats at the societal level: the most educated states and communities went for Obama.

Then, as now, Massachusetts was the most educated state, whether you measured by percentage of people with a bachelor's degree, percent with a degree from a highly competitive university, percent with an advanced degree, or just in terms of the quality of high schools in the state (it has dominated NAEP scores for decades). And, even with Massachusetts being Romney's home state, Obama manhandled him there, just as he did in every other highly-educated state... a margin of well over 20 points, in fact.

I find that really interesting: that Romney could do better with college-educated people at the individual level, while being completely uncompetitive in highly educated states and localities. Why?

There's a critical-mass issue there. When you have a critical mass of well-educated people in an area, the voting tendencies of both the educated and the uneducated in that area tend to move left. Or, to put it the other way, when there's a critical mass of ignorance, both the educated and the uneducated in the area are more likely to vote Republican.

I suppose some of that may come down to the fact that liberal politics are based around collective action, and how appealing collective action is going to seem depends in large part on who you see around you. If you're surrounded by ignoramuses, you're more likely to figure you're better off going it alone, and you'll tell the government to butt out. If, on the other hand, you're surrounded by well-educated people, you're more likely to think banding together on something is a way to make the whole better than the sum of the parts.

To put it in really simple terms, imagine you're in a gym class and you have a choice of playing a team sport like basketball, or an individual one like distance running. If you look around you and see a bunch of uncoordinated, unmotivated slobs, the idea of your success being dependent on them is going to look less attractive and you'll go for the individual sport. But if you look around and see a bunch of strong athletes, the team sport may seem like a better way to motivate each other and come together for something special.
 
Very accurate. There is a racial and gender disparity too, but uneducated white males vote Republican, and extremely educated white males vote Democratic. White men who expected to get through life based solely on their whiteness and maleness, are overwhelmingly trump supporters.

The other slight disagreement is your statement about trade schools. The Northern European countries have high levels of higher education, AND high levels of trade education. America has amazingly little formal trade education compared to many foreign countries, and the Republicans are hard core against adding more. Trade education allows young people without social contacts to learn a trade, which the Republicans hate. They want jobs to be based on whiteness and maleness.

I don't have an issue with trade schools if done right. But I think a lot of the push towards it in the US is coming from the right precisely because they hope that it's a way to enhance employability of the young without opening their eyes to things that might get them voting Democrat.
 
You can review the data yourself, if you don't believe me. I provided the link.

Sweeping generalizations are exactly that. The entire premise is false and designed only to give Democrat intellectuals (or those that may view themselves as such, like midcan5) a little endorphin rush from a "feely good".

Anyone that would waste time even trying to study something like that is to be disregarded entirely.
 
We can get into a whole discussion on racial demagoguery used by Democrats but that's really for a separate discussion.

I don't know off the top of my head the results for college educated voters (with or without advanced degrees)

And one irrelevant to the topic or my response
 
Is that why Trump “loves the uneducated?”

Less education also makes one more vulnerable to demagoguery, and with the rise of talk radio plus cable infotainment, the right seems to excell at employing such for political gain

Yes. The kind of demagoguery Trump engages in is a dangerous game for a politician, in that it either works or it backfires badly -- in the latter case, not just failing to sway someone your way, but driving them away. And that's because it's based on statements that sound idiotic or mendacious to those who know more about the world. So, the uneducated are the key audience, and the educated are a problem.

Take, for instance, Trump's 2016 campaign, where perhaps the single most important theme was scaring white people about a phantom crime wave, which supposedly was driven in large part by immigrants. Now, anyone who had taken a decent sociology class or just got into the habit of reading reputable newspapers had a bit too much context for that scaremongering to work. We knew that, in fact, murder rates in 2016 were near record lows, and that immigrants actually commit murders at lower rates than native-born Americans. So his demagoguery not only failed to scare us into supporting him, but actual drove us away, by making him seem dishonest. But for those who lacked that context, it worked.
 
Well, he should have because it's true. Education =/= intelligence. Look no further than law schools for proof of that!

Poorly educated people are quick to point out that education doesn't equal intelligence. But this is a strawman argument here, since I never mentioned intelligence. The first mention of it in the thread was your own attempt to rebut a point that wasn't present in the first place.

Anyway, it's true education≠intelligence. However, the two are related. Education tends to enhance intelligence, an the unintelligent often find it difficult to get an education.
 
There are all kinds of trade jobs that pay six figures. I know this board is full of millionaires but for a lot of 'regular folk' I don't think making $100K is all that bad.

The real problem with discussions like this is it all revolves how do people vote. Then as partisans we decide we like better those who vote like we do. But if people actually put that sh*t aside, not every kid is cut out for college nor does every kid have to go to college. People can forge their own paths in life and live healthy and fulfilling lives without a college degree (and the massive amount of debt it can take to achieve).

Edit: I guess I could be considered somewhat of a hypocrite because if you ask my five year old what she's going to do at 18 she'll tell you go to USC. (I don't tell her this but I'd let her go to Stanford if she were accepted.) So I couldn't fathom her not going to college short of her dropping out because she was some amazing entrepreneur. But on the whole not every kid has to go that path.

Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America
 
Yes. The kind of demagoguery Trump engages in is a dangerous game for a politician, in that it either works or it backfires badly -- in the latter case, not just failing to sway someone your way, but driving them away. And that's because it's based on statements that sound idiotic or mendacious to those who know more about the world. So, the uneducated are the key audience, and the educated are a problem.

Take, for instance, Trump's 2016 campaign, where perhaps the single most important theme was scaring white people about a phantom crime wave, which supposedly was driven in large part by immigrants. Now, anyone who had taken a decent sociology class or just got into the habit of reading reputable newspapers had a bit too much context for that scaremongering to work. We knew that, in fact, murder rates in 2016 were near record lows, and that immigrants actually commit murders at lower rates than native-born Americans. So his demagoguery not only failed to scare us into supporting him, but actual drove us away, by making him seem dishonest. But for those who lacked that context, it worked.

And continues to work today which explains the success of such as DeSantis and Abbott
 
While it is possible to be self educated, it is difficult. As much as you can claim to be "really, really intelligent", without some sort of education, you are pretty much useless in any tech business like Musk's. He is hiring well educated people, not high school dropouts who keep going on and on about how intelligent they supposedly are.

Yes.

One advantage of formal education is that if you go to a decent university, it forces you to learn things outside your existing interests, at least early in your education, and few people have the self-discipline to do that on their own. People who never have that formal higher education often never break out beyond a narrow set of interests, so although they may become pretty impressive in those narrow fields, they can be shockingly ignorant of context.

I run into that online a lot -- like sixty-year-old men who could practically write you a book on the US Civil War's military history off the top of their heads, because they've been reading pop history about its battles for decades, but couldn't tell you a thing about what was going on in the world outside of the US at that moment.... or even much about non-military US history from the era. It's all just battlefields, generals, and maneuvers for them.
 
It's actually very relevant when you claim people vote base on demagoguery. (it just doesn't bother you as much when the recipients of it vote the way you prefer)

How?

How does one use race to appeal to voters, especially higher educated voters?
 
Democrats walked away from the working class.
They didn't. They still work for the working class, which is why they still win the working class handily. Biden beat Trump by 11 points among those earning under $50,000 per year, and by even more among those in the $50k-$100k range. Trump only did better among those earning $100k or more.

Democrats just don't do well with the WHITE working class, because of the GOP's successful strategy of demagoguing racial issues.

More to the point, a lot of people misuse the term "working class" as if it were synonymous with "undereducated white guy." It isn't. Say, for instance, that you inherited a plumbing business from your father, and now you live comfortably off the labors of a bunch of employees who do the actual wrench-turning. Even if you don't have a day of education past high school, that doesn't make you "working class." It makes you part of the ownership class. Same with people who got handed a family farm, and now sit out on their porch drinking sweet tea while the brown people sweat in their fields.

That's really the key demographic of Trump-era Republicans -- not the working class, but the white, rural ownership class.
 
Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America

I'm not speaking/suggesting at all about going the European model route of putting kids in a vocational school path early on. We see plenty of kids go into huge debt though to go to college for certain degrees where they make little money in their profession. I see no problem if a kid desires trade school instead (if there's an opportunity for work in that field).

(And we're not talking about kids who are choosing between Cal Berkeley or trade school.)

The OP made it clear he/she only cares how people vote. I hope we don't dictate policy on education in that regard.
 
Sweeping generalizations are exactly that

Yes, and that's why I didn't stick with sweeping generalizations. I provided a lot of specifics, such as what number of the most educated states went for the Dems and what number of the least educated went for the Republicans. And if you don't believe my very specific claims, I provided a link with which you can confirm for yourself. I understand that you'd like to use a sweeping generalization to dismiss those facts, but they aren't going anywhere merely because they made you uncomfortable.
 
How?

How does one use race to appeal to voters, especially higher educated voters?

Joe "they'll put you back in chains y'all" Biden? Joe "you ain't black if you vote for Trump" Biden? We can have an entire conversation of how Democrats use race to gain/keep minority voters.
 
Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America

You may remember Dick Vitale (used to love to rush home from school in the '80's and listen to him on Big Monday). I can remember him talking about athletes and how they needed to teach the kids trade skills. I was young and didn't think much of it at the time but now that I remember him saying that I get where he was coming from. Everyone has their own path.
 
I'm not speaking/suggesting at all about going the European model route of putting kids in a vocational school path early on. We see plenty of kids go into huge debt though to go to college for certain degrees where they make little money in their profession. I see no problem if a kid desires trade school instead (if there's an opportunity for work in that field).

(And we're not talking about kids who are choosing between Cal Berkeley or trade school.)

The OP made it clear he/she only cares how people vote. I hope we don't dictate policy on education in that regard.

I don’t either, what I am pointing out is that it is not an easy thing to institute a trade school path like many envision as the solution

Truth be known the entire 19th Century factory model used in American education needs to be rethought
 
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