Education and Politics

[archives]

Joe "they'll put you back in chains y'all" Biden? Joe "you ain't black if you vote for Trump" Biden? We can have an entire conversation of how Democrats use race to gain/keep minority voters.

None of that would appeal the more educated voter, if anything, it is aimed at a small percentages of voters, and most importantly, it is not endorsed nor echoed thru any media,

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That's certainly been a common talking point among right-wingers, eager to explain away the strong correlation between educated societies and left-leaning societies. But one fascinating thing about the phenomenon is that it existed even before the correlation held true at the individual level.

For example, as recently as the 2012 election, Republicans were doing better with those individuals who have college degrees. Romney won 53% of college graduates, and Obama won just 43%. Yet, even as that correlation favored Republicans at the individual level, it favored Democrats at the societal level: the most educated states and communities went for Obama.

Then, as now, Massachusetts was the most educated state, whether you measured by percentage of people with a bachelor's degree, percent with a degree from a highly competitive university, percent with an advanced degree, or just in terms of the quality of high schools in the state (it has dominated NAEP scores for decades). And, even with Massachusetts being Romney's home state, Obama manhandled him there, just as he did in every other highly-educated state... a margin of well over 20 points, in fact.

I find that really interesting: that Romney could do better with college-educated people at the individual level, while being completely uncompetitive in highly educated states and localities. Why?

There's a critical-mass issue there. When you have a critical mass of well-educated people in an area, the voting tendencies of both the educated and the uneducated in that area tend to move left. Or, to put it the other way, when there's a critical mass of ignorance, both the educated and the uneducated in the area are more likely to vote Republican.

I suppose some of that may come down to the fact that liberal politics are based around collective action, and how appealing collective action is going to seem depends in large part on who you see around you. If you're surrounded by ignoramuses, you're more likely to figure you're better off going it alone, and you'll tell the government to butt out. If, on the other hand, you're surrounded by well-educated people, you're more likely to think banding together on something is a way to make the whole better than the sum of the parts.

To put it in really simple terms, imagine you're in a gym class and you have a choice of playing a team sport like basketball, or an individual one like distance running. If you look around you and see a bunch of uncoordinated, unmotivated slobs, the idea of your success being dependent on them is going to look less attractive and you'll go for the individual sport. But if you look around and see a bunch of strong athletes, the team sport may seem like a better way to motivate each other and come together for something special.

Simple answer: Romney really isn't a mainstream Republican. He's more like Democrat lite. That is, he'd be a Democrat in the say, 1970's but isn't today because the Democrats have moved too far Left for his tastes. That's how he got elected governor of Massachusetts. He was seen as a moderate Democrat at a time when the Democrats were becoming Progressive Leftists.

It also doesn't change what I said about people with degrees. I run into those sorts of idiots all the time. They have a degree in some simple liberal art and can't do percentages unless they happen to have a calculator with a % key on it. When I was in college the class that was a real eye opener to that was I took astronomy. I did this because I thought it would be fun and as a junior, I only had three classes toward my major that semester and needed a filler because of the way the GI Bill money worked. That is, I had 9 hours of classes, and needed 12 to get full funding. If I took 9 I lost like 50% of the funding because I'd be "parttime" by the rules of how that funding worked. Crazy huh?

Anyway, here I was in this freshman astronomy class after physics with calculus, statistics, industrial engineering classes, a few electrical and nuclear engineering classes (my Navy background helped make those a breeze), etc. The class was close to 100 students and I was the sole standout it seemed. Everybody else, mostly women, were in liberal arts degree programs.

I was just astounded again and again by the sheer vapidness and inability to think and problem solve that class had.

Liberal / Leftist politics comes down to non-thinkers who operate off feelings and emotion, often to the point where they willfully ignore logic and facts even when presented with them.

Here's an example I found just the other day. A PhD in psychology trying to argue that nuclear power is bad.

https://emagazine.com/the-insanity-of-expanding-nuclear-energy/

That article is a mix of outright lies, wrong information, and conspiracy theories. It's a proof that education doesn't equal intelligence or even expert knowledge on some subject.

 

[archives]

You may remember Dick Vitale (used to love to rush home from school in the '80's and listen to him on Big Monday). I can remember him talking about athletes and how they needed to teach the kids trade skills. I was young and didn't think much of it at the time but now that I remember him saying that I get where he was coming from. Everyone has their own path.

Yeah, but none of those paths starts with wanting to be a sheet rocker

And I’d send the kid to Stanford, just start taping those daily vocabulary words to the bathroom mirror and encourage the right reading lists

Not a Dick Vitale fan, when I watch a basketball game if I hear at all from the color commentator I prefer it relates to what is happening on the court, not some “diaper dandy” in Boise, Idaho who is going to be the next Magic Johnson. Al McGuire employed his street smarts and wit to add humor to his broadcasts, Vitale attempted to emulate that but largely wind up just echoing nonsense

 

[cawacko]

I don’t either, what I am pointing out is that it is not an easy thing to institute a trade school path like many envision as the solution

Truth be known the entire 19th Century factory model used in American education needs to be rethought

This is 100% correct. I don't know if Education Industrial Complex is a term but it exists. There are so many entrenched interests in the education system that change is extremely difficult. It's really unfortunate.

 

[cawacko]

Yeah, but none of those paths starts with wanting to be a sheet rocker

And I’d send the kid to Stanford, just start taping those daily vocabulary words to the bathroom mirror and encourage the right reading lists

Not a Dick Vitale fan, when I watch a basketball game if I hear at all from the color commentator I prefer it relates to what is happening on the court, not some “diaper dandy” in Boise, Idaho who is going to be the next Magic Johnson. Al McGuire employed his street smarts and wit to add humor to his broadcasts, Vitale attempted to emulate that but largely wind up just echoing nonsense

The reality is there are many kids (Div 1 college b-ball players) that are in school because of athletics, not their grades (as in they would not have qualified for admissions strictly on academic merit). Many schools just push these kids to the easiest majors and give them a bunch of tutors to help keep them eligible. So when their eligibility is up they either don't have a degree or if they do it's probably not worth the paper its written on. That's who Vitale was talking about. Set these kids up with skills that will have real world applications.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The American education system has been destroyed by the WOKE Revolution, from Pre-K to Post Doc.

The last thing they want to see are people who can think for themselves.

 

[Celticguy]

They didn't. They still work for the working class, which is why they still win the working class handily. Biden beat Trump by 11 points among those earning under $50,000 per year, and by even more among those in the $50k-$100k range. Trump only did better among those earning $100k or more.

Democrats just don't do well with the WHITE working class, because of the GOP's successful strategy of demagoguing racial issues.

More to the point, a lot of people misuse the term "working class" as if it were synonymous with "undereducated white guy." It isn't. Say, for instance, that you inherited a plumbing business from your father, and now you live comfortably off the labors of a bunch of employees who do the actual wrench-turning. Even if you don't have a day of education past high school, that doesn't make you "working class." It makes you part of the ownership class. Same with people who got handed a family farm, and now sit out on their porch drinking sweet tea while the brown people sweat in their fields.

That's really the key demographic of Trump-era Republicans -- not the working class, but the white, rural ownership class.

lets not confuse black vote for working class. but they have been losing groud there as well.

 

[archives]

The reality is there are many kids (Div 1 college b-ball players) that are in school because of athletics, not their grades (as in they would not have qualified for admissions strictly on academic merit). Many schools just push these kids to the easiest majors and give them a bunch of tutors to help keep them eligible. So when their eligibility is up they either don't have a degree or if they do it's probably not worth the paper its written on. That's who Vitale was talking about. Set these kids up with skills that will have real world applications.

As I said, not a fan, and Vitale was one of the biggest cheerleaders of Valvano who was the Bruce Pearl of his day, doesn't seem he was really all that concerned about scholar athletes

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

One interesting phenomenon that has taken place in the last couple decades is that various communities within the US have been realigning politically based on education level.

There used to be low-education areas that voted Democrat consistently, and high-education areas that voted Republican. West Virginia went for the Democrat in eight out of ten presidential elections between 1960 and 1996. Virginia, meanwhile, went Republican in all but one presidential election between 1952 and 2004. But, lately, there's almost perfect sorting of the states by education into red and blue camps, as formerly Democratic low-education areas pulled right and started falling to the Republicans (including WV), while formerly Republican high-education areas went blue (including VA).

You can see that here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_educational_attainment

If you list those by the percent of residents with a Bachelor's degree, the top 15 ALL went for Clinton and Biden, in the last two presidential elections. Meanwhile, of the 29 lowest-education places, only two went Democrat twice in the last two presidential elections: Nevada and New Mexico (though PR also would have, if they got a vote).

You see similar patterns if you list by advanced degrees. In 2020, Trump lost all of the top twenty places with the highest percentage of residents who have advanced degrees. The patterns also tend to hold within states. For example, in New York State, downstate New York tends to be highly educated, and usually goes overwhelmingly Democratic, while upstate has less education, and often goes Republican. New York County (Manhattan), where 87% of voters went for Biden, is New York's most educated county, with 61.3% of those 25 and over with a Bachelor's degree or better. Tioga County, where 59% went for Trump, is New York's least educated county, where only 26% of those 25 and older have a degree.

This isn't unique to the US, either. Although there isn't perfect sorting my education level internationally, generally speaking highly liberal areas like the countries of Scandinavia and other parts of northern and western Europe tend to have high educational levels (e.g. 44% of Dutch people age 25-34 having a four-year degree or better), while more conservative areas have low education (eg., 19% for Chile, or 11% for Indonesia).

I think this helps to explain the hostility so many on the right feel towards higher education.... why, for example, there's such a push for sending fewer people to college and guiding more to trade school. An educated community amounts to home-field advantage for liberal politicians.

education now is indoctrination. it basically means you're dumb and have no innate bullshit detector.

PHD = pile it higher and deeper.

 

[BidenPresident]

Look at this forum. The trolls and dumb people are all right wingers.

 

[cawacko]

education now is indoctrination. it basically means you're dumb and have no innate bullshit detector.

PHD = pile it higher and deeper.

Question for you. You told me I was a horrible parent because I have aspirations of my daughter one day attending an elite University. Now we know your affinity for Trump. He was educated in elite schools growing up as well as being as Ivy League grad. He sent his kids to the most elite private schools in NYC (or elite boarding schools) and then elite Universities.

Does he get a pass as a parent because you like his world view?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Question for you. You told me I was a horrible parent because I have aspirations of my daughter one day attending an elite University. Now we know your affinity for Trump. He was educated in elite schools growing up as well as being as Ivy League grad. He sent his kids to the most elite private schools in NYC (or elite boarding schools) and then elite Universities.

Does he get a pass as a parent because you like his world view?

are you encouraging her to get in 200,000 of debt for a degree of questionable value?

trumps are in a different category.

a million here and there makes no difference for trump type people.

but for regular people its an important decision.

 

[cawacko]

are you encouraging her to get in 200,000 of debt for a degree of questionable value?

trumps are in a different category.

a million here and there makes no difference for trump type people.

but for regular people its an important decision.

You have no idea my financial situation or is she may receive a scholarship etc.

So your premise is if you're rich its ok to send your kids to elite schools but if you're not rich then you're a bad parent for wanting to do so?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

You have no idea my financial situation or is she may receive a scholarship etc.

So your premise is if you're rich its ok to send your kids to elite schools but if you're not rich then you're a bad parent for wanting to do so?

if it's gonna be a high debt for a questionable degree, it's a bad decision.

villainize that senitment if you wish.

 

[cawacko]

if it's gonna be a high debt for a questionable degree, it's a bad decision.

villainize that senitment if you wish.

When you said I was a bad parent for desiring to send my daughter to the best school possible there was zero discussion about what degree she would pursue.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

When you said I was a bad parent for desiring to send my daughter to the best school possible there was zero discussion about what degree she would pursue.

Im elaborating now.

but if you want to stay pissed, be my guest.

how do you want to feel?

 

[leaningright]

Is a good idea, but difficult in the U.S., it would involve tracking kids at an early age, and there aren’t many American parents who want their child to labeled as less than capable. Besides, with the Unions diminished, many of those trades don’t offer the financial benefits they once did and are less attractive

With a view towards segregation…

 

[leaningright]

They didn't. They still work for the working class, which is why they still win the working class handily. Biden beat Trump by 11 points among those earning under $50,000 per year, and by even more among those in the $50k-$100k range. Trump only did better among those earning $100k or more.

Democrats just don't do well with the WHITE working class, because of the GOP's successful strategy of demagoguing racial issues.

More to the point, a lot of people misuse the term "working class" as if it were synonymous with "undereducated white guy." It isn't. Say, for instance, that you inherited a plumbing business from your father, and now you live comfortably off the labors of a bunch of employees who do the actual wrench-turning. Even if you don't have a day of education past high school, that doesn't make you "working class." It makes you part of the ownership class. Same with people who got handed a family farm, and now sit out on their porch drinking sweet tea while the brown people sweat in their fields.

That's really the key demographic of Trump-era Republicans -- not the working class, but the white, rural ownership class.

This post really deserves a big groan.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

That's because "higher" education has changed. Today, many go to college only to get thoroughly stupid studying under radical Leftist, crazy, whack-a-doodle professors. They attain a level of stupidity not found in nature by the time they graduate. So, nothing really has changed. Idiots are still voting Democrat.

No T.A.!

Nothing wrong with Higher Education.

You just never know what will come out of the mix.

Both Obama and Ted Cruz studied Law under Alan Dershowitz at Harvard.

They still walked away with different political ideologies!

Does that mean that Dershowitz failed or did a great job?

I think he did a great job- because he didn't bring politics into his classroom!

I don't care what Musk says, as one can even acquire a doctorate degree and still be an idiot- JUST LOOK AT DR. OZ as one of my best examples!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dr-oz-shouldnt-be-a-senator-or-a-doctor/

 

[T. A. Gardner]

No T.A.!

Nothing wrong with Higher Education.

You just never know what will come out of the mix.

Both Obama and Ted Cruz studied Law under Alan Dershowitz at Harvard.

They still walked away with different political ideologies!

Does that mean that Dershowitz failed or did a great job?

I think he did a great job- because he didn't bring politics into his classroom!

Who cares, it was just law school--a simple liberal arts degree in how to be a glorified secretary pushing paper...