EV's now more expensive in time and money to refuel than ICE vehicles

[Into the Night]

Why will it get worse?

RQAA. I've already answered this question. So have others. Stop asking the same question over and over. It's already been answered.

 

[Into the Night]

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? There is no revolution in battery technology. We are still using the same Lithium Ion batteries developed in the 1960's. Clever electronics that regulate over-charge and discharge have made LI batteries safe enough for standard use and displaced NiCad - except when iPhones and Galaxy Note's burst into flames. For the most part LI is nearly as safe as NiCad, but the technology is old. There is been no advance in actual battery technology in over 60 years. We have just added electronics around the same old batteries to keep them from catching fire and extending the life of them.



When and if they do invent something new, it could change the paradigm - but at the moment - we are still using the same old LI batteries we did in 1965

1985. The Li-ion battery was invented by Akira Yoshino in 1985 while he worked at Sony.

 

[Into the Night]

Lithium is a metal that burns at insane temperatures. LI batteries were avoided for decades because they would burst into flames if overcharged or discharged too quickly. Adding microprocessors to regulate charge and discharge has solved this issue, but in the case of a breach in an accident, an LI battery is extremely dangerous. You can't put them out with water. They need to be smothered.

The Lithium metal battery (invented by Michael Stanley Whittingham in 1976) is not rechargeable. They are rarely used. Yes, they produce a class D fire when they burn.
Lithium ion batteries, on the other hand, ARE rechargeable. They produce a class A fire when they burn. You can put them out with water, chemical fire extinguishers, or CO2 extinguishers. They burn like a firework.

Lithium battery packs, which are not fused on the busbars themselves, will produce a class C fire (electrical fire). One cell burns. If you use water, you will simply set the remaining cells on fire as they short. Once the entire pack is involved, it reverts to a class A fire and can be put out with water.

Lithium packs in EVs can begin to burn just sitting there. The cause is corrosion on the battery terminals, which could come about from road damage, salt, water immersion (floods), or poor maintenance. After the floods in Florida, for example, there was a rash of EV fires...some of them destroyed the house they were charging in.

Repair and maintenance of EVs require specially equipped shops due to the electrical, fire, and weight hazard these battery packs present.

Meanwhile, of course, anyone can repair and maintain a gasoline powered car using fairly commonly available tools, and they can do it right at home or in any shop. I maintain all my own vehicles, including my tractor and aircraft.

 

[Into the Night]

Hmmm, given that Li ion batteries are, themselves, relatively new and somewhat revolutionary as opposed to Pb acid batteries and there's a ton of research ongoing resulting in different types of batteries like safer Li cells and even Na ion batteries I think a revolution is possible.

They are not new. They were invented 38 years ago.
Lead acid cells were invented in 1859. These incredibly successful batteries were used in the first EVs. They are, however, quite heavy. The advantage of this battery is the very low internal resistance, allowing a fairly small battery to provide 400A of current for a short length of time (perfect for starting a car!). Deep cycle style cells are used on electric forklifts. There the battery's weight is an advantage. They are not only power, they are the counterweight for the forklift!

Sodium ion cells are much heavier than Li-ion cells. They have a slightly higher internal resistance too, limiting their charge rate and discharge rate. Due to their weight, and that you will have to use more of them to carry the same joules as present Li-ion packs do, the payload capacity of the vehicle will become almost useless. Further, the sodium will have be manufactured using electrolysis, which produces the highly reactive sodium metal and an extremely toxic and highly reactive gas.

Sodium will self ignite in the presence of moisture. It's a class D fire. You cannot put it out with water (that caused the fire!). The gas is chlorine gas...highly toxic and dangerous. It also is extremely reactive. What are you going to do with it? Vent it to the atmosphere?

Sodium is about four times heavier than lithium and will produce approximately 1/4 of the amp/hour capacity as Li-ion, requiring approximately four times the number of batteries of the same size in the battery pack to achieve the same range.

No, sodium-ion batteries are not a practical solution.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

They are not new. They were invented 38 years ago.
Lead acid cells were invented in 1859. These incredibly successful batteries were used in the first EVs. They are, however, quite heavy. The advantage of this battery is the very low internal resistance, allowing a fairly small battery to provide 400A of current for a short length of time (perfect for starting a car!). Deep cycle style cells are used on electric forklifts. There the battery's weight is an advantage. They are not only power, they are the counterweight for the forklift!

Sodium ion cells are much heavier than Li-ion cells. They have a slightly higher internal resistance too, limiting their charge rate and discharge rate. Due to their weight, and that you will have to use more of them to carry the same joules as present Li-ion packs do, the payload capacity of the vehicle will become almost useless. Further, the sodium will have be manufactured using electrolysis, which produces the highly reactive sodium metal and an extremely toxic and highly reactive gas.

Sodium will self ignite in the presence of moisture. It's a class D fire. You cannot put it out with water (that caused the fire!). The gas is chlorine gas...highly toxic and dangerous. It also is extremely reactive. What are you going to do with it? Vent it to the atmosphere?

Sodium is about four times heavier than lithium.

https://cen.acs.org/business/inorganic-chemicals/Sodium-comes-battery-world/100/i19

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I wish new technology WERE being developed. But there is nothing on the horizon.

https://cen.acs.org/business/inorganic-chemicals/Sodium-comes-battery-world/100/i19

EV's are stupid.

Maybe you just enjoy buying gasoline all the time. That's cool. I haven't paid to "fuel" my car for about 3 years now. I charge it on my solar at home. ANd there's next to no scheduled maintenance that I need.

But if you are made of money you should enjoy all the oil changes and all the gasoline you have to buy. I'll just remain "stupid" and drive for free.

The best option is fuel cells.

Worked in that area. Not a great call. When I was at a transportation fuels conference back in Norway about 20 or so years ago the idea was that fuel cell vehicles would be dominant in the market if they could figure out a way to store the H2. But if they failed at that it would always be on the margins of the transportation industry. And since no real breakthrough storage of H2 has happened (still stuck with compressed gas tanks or metal hydride) the prophecy has held that it is just a bit player.

The non-H2 versions (that pull H2 off of things like methanol) have their own problems as well.

EV's are destroying what is a sensible and rational move from ICE's. All because corrupt politicians have found a way to embezzle public funds.

Except that fuel cells have not taken off as a technology in the consumer transportation sector. EV's are ramping up like mad. They are all over the place now.

 

[Into the Night]

60 years may be "relatively new" in human history - but is nowhere near "new."

Microprocessors have made them safer - I'd even say safe - but they are nothing new.

Microprocessors are really not involved in charging any battery. Li-ion batteries can accept a certain maximum charge rate depending on the ability to dissipate the heat and the internal resistance of the battery (pretty low for Li-ion). Any method of providing the necessary current works.
The discharge rate is also not microprocessors. That is controlled by a bank of power transistors in a typical modern EV. Those transistors are pulsed by a varying duty cycle according to the position of the accelerator pedal.

Yeah, Teslas and other cars use microprocessors to spiffy it up, including reading the accelerator pedal position and switching the transistors, but that's about it.
Charging stations (such as you find at your typical parking lot these days) use microprocessors for billing and for the display, but the basic circuit is simply a large transformer and a rectifier bank.
Specially wired home charging stations contain the rectifier in them, and depend on the transformer on the pole.

Charging stations often break simply because the rectifiers failed (static electricity problems, weather exposure problems, etc).

ALL battery technology performs worse in colder weather. The EV requirement in Norway, for example, is really going to suck.

 

[Into the Night]

You still seem to be of the impression that new technology is not being developed. It most assuredly is. It is not easy but it is being worked on.

The chemistry hasn't changed since the Li-ion battery was invented, twit.

 

[Into the Night]

https://cen.acs.org/business/inorganic-chemicals/Sodium-comes-battery-world/100/i19

Holy Link Worship. The chemistry is the chemistry, moron. You canna' change the laws of physics, cap'n.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

The chemistry hasn't changed since the Li-ion battery was invented, twit.

That doesn't change the fact of my post. Sorry.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Holy Link Worship. The chemistry is the chemistry, moron. You canna' change the laws of physics, cap'n.

I understand. You can't read and the little you CAN read you don't understand. I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe your mommy can read it for you. Maybe she can explain some of the bigger words.

 

[Into the Night]

Maybe you just enjoy buying gasoline all the time.

I have no problem with it. It only takes me a few minutes to refuel my car. I don't have to refuel a car with a full tank.

That's cool. I haven't paid to "fuel" my car for about 3 years now.

Yes you have. Don't lie. TANSTAAFL.

I charge it on my solar at home.

I don't believe you. Charging an EV from solar panels will require days to charge the car from dead to full charge.

ANd there's next to no scheduled maintenance that I need.

So you don't take care of car. Noted.

But if you are made of money you should enjoy all the oil changes

I change my own oil. Typically once a year. It costs me approx $20 to do so. Are you that destitute?

and all the gasoline you have to buy.

Not a problem, as I've said.

I'll just remain "stupid" and drive for free.

You ARE stupid if you think you are driving for free. TANSTAAFL.

Worked in that area.

You never did.

Not a great call. When I was at a transportation fuels conference back in Norway about 20 or so years ago the idea was that fuel cell vehicles would be dominant in the market if they could figure out a way to store the H2.

Hydrogen is easily stored in compressed tanks. The problem is filling those tanks and the fuel cell itself requiring expensive materials to manufacture, and the slow ramp-up to power, necessitating carrying large battery packs (usually Li-ion these days) to ballast the load.

Except that fuel cells have not taken off as a technology in the consumer transportation sector. EV's are ramping up like mad. They are all over the place now.

Less then 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. That's not 'ramping up'.

 

[Into the Night]

The Hybrid/Electric Limited Battery Warranty covers defects in the factory workmanship or materials of the vehicle's lithium ion battery for 10 years from the date of original retail delivery or date of first use, or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

Well, that warranty would last only a couple of years for me. I would reach that 100,000 miles in about that time.

 

[Into the Night]

EVs batteries do not fail at 100K. Real world examples show they last a lot longer than that. The new batteries will be even better in all aspects.

From the very first charge, EV battery packs lose their ability to charge. They continue to lose it over that period. They do not fail suddenly. They simply don't have the range they once did.
The first time you charge a Li-ion battery, about 50% of it's capacity is gone. That takes place at the factory, so you don't see it. After that, recharging slowly removes capacity with each charge. The faster rate you charge it, the faster the battery pack goes bad.

 

[Into the Night]

I wish new technology WERE being developed. But there is nothing on the horizon.

EV's are stupid.

The best option is fuel cells. EV's are destroying what is a sensible and rational move from ICE's. All because corrupt politicians have found a way to embezzle public funds.

Fuel cells require batteries to function in a vehicle. While the pack required isn't as large as an EV, it's still a significant size.
Further, fuel cells require expensive and rare to obtain materials to build them.

While storing the hydrogen isn't a problem, filling the tanks and producing large amounts of hydrogen is.

 

[Into the Night]

They fail at about 7 years - pretty consistently.

I'll have to pull my warranty - I don't recall anything about miles on the batteries - I think it was 10 years. Even so, I know for a fact it's pro-rated.

If you don't drive your car 100,000 miles in seven years, you aren't driving your car much at all.
That's how they get out of the warranty period of 10 years.

 

[Into the Night]

That doesn't change the fact of my post. Sorry.

Argument of the Stone fallacy. Buzzword fallacy. Learn what 'fact' means.

 

[Into the Night]

I understand. You can't read and the little you CAN read you don't understand. I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe your mommy can read it for you. Maybe she can explain some of the bigger words.

Read what? You are not making any argument. You apparently have taken up the hobby of posting pages full of random Holy Links.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Microprocessors are really not involved in charging any battery. Li-ion batteries can accept a certain maximum charge rate depending on the ability to dissipate the heat and the internal resistance of the battery (pretty low for Li-ion). Any method of providing the necessary current works.
The discharge rate is also not microprocessors. That is controlled by a bank of power transistors in a typical modern EV. Those transistors are pulsed by a varying duty cycle according to the position of the accelerator pedal.

Yeah, Teslas and other cars use microprocessors to spiffy it up, including reading the accelerator pedal position and switching the transistors, but that's about it.
Charging stations (such as you find at your typical parking lot these days) use microprocessors for billing and for the display, but the basic circuit is simply a large transformer and a rectifier bank.
Specially wired home charging stations contain the rectifier in them, and depend on the transformer on the pole.

Charging stations often break simply because the rectifiers failed (static electricity problems, weather exposure problems, etc).

ALL battery technology performs worse in colder weather. The EV requirement in Norway, for example, is really going to suck.

That's not the key.

LI is prone to ignition if overcharged. What changed and made the batteries commonplace is the use of microprocessors in battery packs to regulate charge and discharge rates. Open any laptop and you'll find a control device.

A car uses a more sophisticated system than a laptop does, absolutely controlling the charge rate and ensuring the battery pack/bank is not overcharged.

 

[Into the Night]

That's not the key.

Neither microprocessors no Li-ion batteries are a key.

LI is prone to ignition if overcharged.

Lithium batteries are not used in EVs or computers. Li-ion batteries are. They are prone to ignition just sitting there if corrosion sets in. Usually not a problem with computers and their coin batteries (used to run the RTC). It IS a problem with EVs, because they run out in the weather and the shit on the roads.

What changed and made the batteries commonplace is the use of microprocessors in battery packs to regulate charge and discharge rates. Open any laptop and you'll find a control device.

No, they were in use before microprocessors were really being applied to anything like that.

A car uses a more sophisticated system than a laptop does, absolutely controlling the charge rate and ensuring the battery pack/bank is not overcharged.

While true, it is simply an easier way to do it than with the older circuitry. Kind of like FADEC engines today or even wall thermostats.

Overcharging is really not the problem with these batteries. Loss of retention and corrosion and battery fire is the problem with these batteries.
Cost is becoming more of an issue also, with the price of lithium going up as supplies dwindle. In 2021, lithium was around $7/kg. Today, it has risen to $60/kg after a high of $80/kg in 2022.