Fight Night: Barack Obama versus Australian Prime Minister....

Darla said:
Chavez making jokes at Bush's expense, and at Bush's expense only, is a very different matter. I probably wouldn't have responded to that either, unless I had a good joke in response.

A world leader calling half of America terrorist enablers, or saying that terrorists are rooting for a party that represents half of America, because, and this obvious, they will be easier on the terrorists/support the terrorists, is completely different, and if you can't see that, that's your shortcoming, not mine.

I stand by every word I wrote.
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So, other leaders who state that the US is a "terrorist nation" deserve what? For the past 6 years I have heard how we are "the same" as those terrorists from many people on that side. And that any person who supports the action in Iraq are "terrorists"...

So, are you saying that they too should shut it, or do you agree with them? Then if an R "gave it to them" over calling that other half of the nation terrorists you would what? Start calling them names on a forum and pretend that what I say isn't what I mean?

That'll show them!

I'll reiterate. Slinging insults in the news is not responsible Foreign Relations, and "They started it!" is the defense of two year olds.
 
Damocles said:
So, other leaders who state that the US is a "terrorist nation" deserve what? For the past 6 years I have heard how we are "the same" as those terrorists from many people on that side. And that any person who supports the action in Iraq are "terrorists"...

So, are you saying that they too should shut it, or do you agree with them? Then if an R "gave it to them" over calling that other half of the nation terrorists you would what? Start calling them names on a forum and pretend that what I say isn't what I mean?

That'll show them!

I'll reiterate. Slinging insults in the news is not responsible Foreign Relations, and "They started it!" is the defense of two year olds.
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Has any ally of the US called us a "terrorist nation"? I'm unaware of this happening. Can you point me to the world leader who has called the US a terrorist nation? Perhaps Iran has? Of course, only you would compare that to the Prime Minister of our historic ally, Australia, calling the Democratic party terrorist symps, and think you've made some point. Certainly even the leaders of countries like France, during the run-up to the Iraqi war when half this country was busy embarrassing themselves and all of us by playing the bushfool role, never said any such thing.

Standing up for yourself is always responsible. And my definition of "class" does not include allowing people to slander you, and half your country without fighting back. That's my definition of a spineless coward. I'll make no apologies for any Democrat who decides they're not going to be a spineless coward. I don't want one for President...not of any party.
 
Has any ally of the US called us a "terrorist nation"? I'm unaware of this happening.

I gotta admit, I was scratching my head over this too. If Tony Blair ever said this, we should slap him down.

I'm sure that nut job in Iran has said it. And, I think our government has responded, as it should.
 
Darla said:
Has any ally of the US called us a "terrorist nation"? I'm unaware of this happening. Can you point me to the world leader who has called the US a terrorist nation? Perhaps Iran has? Of course, only you would compare that to the Prime Minister of our historic ally, Australia, calling the Democratic party terrorist symps, and think you've made some point. Certainly even the leaders of countries like France, during the run-up to the Iraqi war when half this country was busy embarrassing themselves and all of us by playing the bushfool role, never said any such thing.

Standing up for yourself is always responsible. And my definition of "class" does not include allowing people to slander you, and half your country without fighting back. That's my definition of a spineless coward. I'll make no apologies for any Democrat who decides they're not going to be a spineless coward. I don't want one for President...not of any party.
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Do you doubt that one leader in the UK has iterated that sentiment? Have I "heard it constantly" from others? How many times have we heard one of you, or others say that they are "unAmerican" for starting an "immoral war"? It gets silly to say how wrong one side is over the other as we forgive the exact same action from our own "side".

What others do you forgive from those with your same opinion. I do not. Foreign Relations are not best served by a silly insult fight in the news regardless of who started it.

As I said, "They did it first!" is the defense of a two year old, not what I expect from a President. In fact, even this President whom many believe is a dolt had enough class not to get into one.
 
Damocles said:
Do you doubt that one leader in the UK has iterated that sentiment? Have I "heard it constantly" from others? How many times have we heard one of you, or others say that they are "unAmerican" for starting an "immoral war"? It gets silly to say how wrong one side is over the other as we forgive the exact same action from our own "side".

What others do you forgive from those with your same opinion. I do not. Foreign Relations are not best served by a silly insult fight in the news regardless of who started it.

As I said, "They did it first!" is the defense of a two year old, not what I expect from a President. In fact, even this President whom many believe is a dolt had enough class not to get into one.
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Just give it up. You can't provide any example of any leader of a US ally saying any such thing about America, and so you start babbling about what people say on message boards.

You look silly.
 
Howard is in UNISON with the Beast (bush administration) :)

Dems like charlie Rangle spoke out when Chavez criticised our president...even if he agreed with him, it was not right for Chavez to do this at the UN....

Just as it was NOT RIGHT for Howard to say this....
 
There have already been attempts to smear Obama by claiming he attended a Madrassa.

As for that fuck-wit of an Australian PM, he is a Bush-clone, an idiot fantasist who hasn't a clue what is going on in Iraq, how to resolve the situation or even how to deal with an insurgency in general. He's a knee-jerk, reactionary conservative.
 
Has any ally of the US called us a "terrorist nation"? I'm unaware of this happening.

The US is the only nation cited for sponsoring terrorism by the World Court for the Contra episode, when sponsoring terrorism was all the rage with RW US governments, before the US got hit itself and realised that terrorism isn't nice.
 
Darla said:
Just give it up. You can't provide any example of any leader of a US ally saying any such thing about America, and so you start babbling about what people say on message boards.

You look silly.
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I don't. Really. The US was cited as being a terror sponser, by nations with which we allied...

Not only were their leaders saying so, they made it official.

Those who support Bush have had these kind of things to deal with for the past 6 years:

http://www.internationalterrorist.com/

And they are constantly called "unamerican" because they support GITMO and other things of that nature. The words are the same, just from a different POV.

I love this, you act like I support the war or something, that Bush is a friend and that I voted twice for him. In all of those you would be very wrong.

I just believe that sending insults over the airwaves, regardless of the "he started it" syndrome that seems to be spreading among the Democrats, is simply the wrong way to go about Foreign Relations and it speaks directly to the job he is applying for.

And if I were an Aussie, I'd not be voting for Howard as I think it is irresponsible to hurl insults over the airwaves at Foreign leaders in an attempt to effect elections... (Oh wait, it sounds the same from both sides... I wonder if that's what consistency feels like....)
 
Care4all said:
Howard is in UNISON with the Beast (bush administration) :)

Dems like charlie Rangle spoke out when Chavez criticised our president...even if he agreed with him, it was not right for Chavez to do this at the UN....

Just as it was NOT RIGHT for Howard to say this....
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I agree.
 
Let me see if I'm up to speed:

According to Damo it was childish and irresponsible of Obama to respond to accusations that his plan would beneficial to terrorists. Rather he should closed his eyes an ears to dissent and let everyone else assume his opinion and stance from his silence. Yes. That's a brilliant PR strategy and traits I'd like to see in a leader. Not standing up to opposition.

Get real Damo.
 
LadyT said:
Let me see if I'm up to speed:

According to Damo it was childish and irresponsible of Obama to respond to accusations that his plan would beneficial to terrorists. Rather he should closed his eyes an ears to dissent and let everyone else assume his opinion and stance from his silence. Yes. That's a brilliant PR strategy and traits I'd like to see in a leader. Not standing up to opposition.

Get real Damo.
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No, by stooping he placed himself with the foolish.

And I am very real. I think if Bush decided to just exchange direct insults in the Press each and every one of you would maybe call him a "cowboy" or some such, and speak how it was irresponsible. But heck, what do I know, it's not like I've seen it.

I would agree with you, I would also call it irresponsible to press insults in the press. Even to respond to such inanities simply lowers the bar. I'd prefer a leader that will raise that bar...

"Get real"...

And as I have stated, "They did it first!" is not a very adult reason to do something.
 
Bottom line:
We're all in agreement that Howard should have kept his mouth shut. He really has made himself look like an arse. Obama however, offered constructive advise on how Howie would be more than free to respond when he enacts his plan which was more than appropiate. If Obama insinuated that Howie was a terrorist collaborator, you may have had a point with your eye for an eye comparisons, however, his response had a lot more tact and less offensive than howie's original assertion.

What does this have to with Bush?
 
LadyT said:
Bottom line:
We're all in agreement that Howard should have kept his mouth shut. He really has made himself look like an arse. Obama however, offered constructive advise on how Howie would be more than free to respond when he enacts his plan which was more than appropiate. If Obama insinuated that Howie was a terrorist collaborator, you may have had a point with your eye for an eye comparisons, however, his response had a lot more tact and less offensive than howie's original assertion.

What does this have to with Bush?
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Other than presenting an hypothetical comparison. Not much.

I have made my point. So far the defesne is, "He did it first!" or "His wasn't as insulting." either way it is clear that it simply lowered himself to the same level as what others are saying is irresponsible from another. Either it is irresponsible to present foreign relations as a juvenile insult contest on the news, or it is not. Pretending it's all good because he was "your" guy isn't in the slightest bit an argument, it is simply pretense.

Were I he, my answer would be more likely, "Well, Americans do not take kindly to outsiders attempting to effect elections using insults in the media, I'll let his actions speak for themselves."
 
Damocles said:
Other than presenting an hypothetical comparison. Not much.

I have made my point. So far the defesne is, "He did it first!" or "His wasn't as insulting." either way it is clear that it simply lowered himself to the same level as what others are saying is irresponsible from another. Either it is irresponsible to present foreign relations as a juvenile insult contest on the news, or it is not. Pretending it's all good because he was "your" guy isn't in the slightest bit an argument, it is simply pretense.

Were I he, my answer would be more likely, "Well, Americans do not take kindly to outsiders attempting to effect elections using insults in the media, I'll let his actions speak for themselves."
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Saying nothing solidifies the accusations. The Kerry approach of doing nothing or "taking the high road" as you call it while you're getting swift boated, loses elections. The dems sat back and allowed themselves to be maligned with no response and that's a big part as to why they lost seats before the 06 election. You're fundamentally flawed and idealist approach would do nothing but lose him the election.

Good thing you're not his campaign manager.
 
Damocles said:
Other than presenting an hypothetical comparison. Not much.

I have made my point. So far the defesne is, "He did it first!" or "His wasn't as insulting." either way it is clear that it simply lowered himself to the same level as what others are saying is irresponsible from another. Either it is irresponsible to present foreign relations as a juvenile insult contest on the news, or it is not. Pretending it's all good because he was "your" guy isn't in the slightest bit an argument, it is simply pretense.

Were I he, my answer would be more likely, "Well, Americans do not take kindly to outsiders attempting to effect elections using insults in the media, I'll let his actions speak for themselves."
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I'd like to add that so far you're latest excuse to pick on a democratic contender is, "it was just as bad". wahhhh, he should be a little p$%#y and say nothing.
 
LadyT said:
Saying nothing solidifies the accusations. The Kerry approach of doing nothing or "taking the high road" as you call it while you're getting swift boated, loses elections. The dems sat back and allowed themselves to be maligned with no response and that's a big part as to why they lost seats before the 06 election. You're fundamentally flawed and idealist approach would do nothing but lose him the election.

Good thing you're not his campaign manager.
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Right... Doing nothing. He presented the idea that he was a war hero, he constantly objected to the "swiftboating" and what I suggested was not "doing nothing". Instead of both of them looking juvenile, only one would.
 
LadyT said:
I'd like to add that so far you're latest excuse to pick on a democratic contender is, "it was just as bad". wahhhh, he should be a little p$%#y and say nothing.
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No, my argument is that it is always foolish. Especially when you are applying for the job of actually handling foreign relations. When Bush stated many things in the Press we constantly heard how irresponsible he was, but heck... It's all good, he's "your" guy... If he won the Presidency it would at least be entertaining tabloid fun, we get to see who he would get into another insult contest with because pointing out the childishness of another is "doing nothing" it is far better to just jump right in that puddle with them so you can be shown to be "doing something"...
 
LadyT said:
Saying nothing solidifies the accusations. The Kerry approach of doing nothing or "taking the high road" as you call it while you're getting swift boated, loses elections. The dems sat back and allowed themselves to be maligned with no response and that's a big part as to why they lost seats before the 06 election. You're fundamentally flawed and idealist approach would do nothing but lose him the election.

Good thing you're not his campaign manager.
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Bingo. Spot on.

I'm fed up with this democrats are terrorist-lovers bullshit. I won't support any candidate who acts like a pussy and allows this slander to go unanswered.
 
Damocles said:
Right... Doing nothing. He presented the idea that he was a war hero, he constantly objected to the "swiftboating" and what I suggested was not "doing nothing". Instead of both of them looking juvenile, only one would.
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what you proposed was doing nothing to address the accusations that he has a flawed policy philosophy with regards to Iraq which is going to be the center stage of the 08 elections. Yes. It makes perfect sense to ignore detractors on that subject /sarcasm off

Actually it took Kerrry a while to respond.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/bush.kerry/index.html

"While Bush has called on Kerry to criticize the harsh campaign ads of 527s in general, the Democratic nominee has not done so. He did recently, however, criticize one MoveOn.org ad that charged Bush used family connections to get into the Texas National Guard and then failed to fulfill his obligations."
 
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