God is not intelligent, or, why I am a pantheist

[Dutch Uncle]

As long as that doesn't include a personal god, I'm fine with it, and my description probably is closer to panentheism, now that I think about it.

Watchmaker God. My wife believes in a personal god and the power of prayer. I believe in the power of positive thinking and that mortal life is simply a phase of our existence like High School is a phase of human adult life.

 

[Publius]

Watchmaker God. My wife believes in a personal god and the power of prayer. I believe in the power of positive thinking and that mortal life is simply a phase of our existence like High School is a phase of human adult life.

No on personal god, yes on power of positive thinking. Are you old enough to remember that book on 'psychocybernetics'.? Good book, right up your positive thinking alley.

 

[Lao Tse]

Watchmaker God. My wife believes in a personal god and the power of prayer. I believe in the power of positive thinking and that mortal life is simply a phase of our existence like High School is a phase of human adult life.

and so you think killing people on behalf of big business is the right thing to do?

I think you're getting busted back down to kindergarten after this.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

and so you think killing people on behalf of big business is the right thing to do?

I think you're getting busted back down to kindergarten after this.

Do you disagree with killing terrorists like the IDF has been doing, Fredo? I don't.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

No on personal god, yes on power of positive thinking. Are you old enough to remember that book on 'psychocybernetics'.? Good book, right up your positive thinking alley.

Yes, but it's been years since I read it. I began college in 1974. Norman Vincent Peale's "The Power of Positive Thinking" was also very influential.

 

[Daylight63]

I'm a panentheist.

as in god is in everything?

 

[Publius]

In order to have self-determination and free will, one cannot know the nature of God for certain.

If you did know the nature of God for certain then there'd be no way for you to make decisions that go against God's will without enduring whatever punishment came with that.

Intelligence does not factor into that other than in the sense that an intelligent person knowing who and what God is, would not rationally do something that goes against God's will /edicts without expectation of retribution.

I do think reincarnation is a possibility and that you get your next go around based, in part, on your last. That aside, knowing who and what God is for certain removes free will and that causes stagnation and the eventual demise of humanity.

God is not a 'being' or an 'entity', in pantheism or panentheism. God is more like the ocean, it's a force that permeates all things but exists beyond all things, that is panentheism. There is no 'god's will' in this framework.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

as in god is in everything?

Pantheism says God is throughout the Universe.

Panentheism says God is both within and without (outside) the Universe. This goes with the multiverse theory.

By "God" I mean a force that is behind the creation of existence, not some old geezer on a golden throne.

Notice that most depictions of God, especially in the Abrahamic religions, portray God as a male monarch....which I'm certain most monarchs in history supported in order to give legitimacy to their position. Notice most monarchs in Europe were considered anointed by God. Anyone who disagreed was imprisoned or summarily executed.

 

[Hume]

God is not a 'being' or an 'entity', in pantheism or panentheism. God is more like the ocean, it's a force that permeates all things but exists beyond all things, that is panentheism. There is no 'god's will' in this framework.

Sounds a bit like Aristotle's concept of god.

 

[Cypress]

God is not a 'being' or an 'entity', in pantheism or panentheism. God is more like the ocean, it's a force that permeates all things but exists beyond all things, that is panentheism. There is no 'god's will' in this framework.

At some point, people speculating about spiritually are just recycling concepts that have been circulating out there for a long time, because your posts sounds a lot like the Tao in Taoism or Li in Neoconfucianism.

 

[Daylight63]

The more abstract the concept of God becomes the less meaningful He becomes and the more palatable He becomes for a larger audience.

 

[Scott]

God is not intelligent.

Or rather, God is not an intelligence. The distinction is significant. God is an abstraction, and a mystery.

What I mean is that, in my brand of pantheism, there is a spiritual basis to life, that there is spirituality permeating all things and this divine source is not an intelligence. It is just source, a spiritual source sans intelligence. So, to say it is intelligent or stupid presumes intelligence, and given that it is not, these descriptors are not applicable.

I'm Pantheist too, but I think there may be a type of a collective intelligence that permeates all things. But not perfect by any means, at least not at the present tme. I like a line from Neil that God can't be all powerful and all good:

 

[Daylight63]

I'm Pantheist too, but I think there may be a type of a collective intelligence that permeates all things.

Can I ask you about this in more detail? What does the idea of a "collective intelligence" mean in this case? What do you mean by an "intelligence"? Is this the concept that, for instance, all the trees and rocks are doing something like "thinking"?

Secondly is there anything that actually supports the idea? (Not intended as a hit against the thought, but rather for me to better understand this form of pantheism which I am reasonably certain is not uncommon).

Thanks.

 

[Scott]

I'm Pantheist too, but I think there may be a type of a collective intelligence that permeates all things. But not perfect by any means, at least not at the present tme. I like a line from Neil that God can't be all powerful and all good:

Can I ask you about this in more detail? What does the idea of a "collective intelligence" mean in this case? What do you mean by an "intelligence"? Is this the concept that, for instance, all the trees and rocks are doing something like "thinking"?

Secondly is there anything that actually supports the idea? (Not intended as a hit against the thought, but rather for me to better understand this form of pantheism which I am reasonably certain is not uncommon).

Thanks.

I'll be honest, when it comes to details, I really don't know. I was going for a kind of Star Wars "force" kind of vibe here. I also remember recently seeing or reading something to the effect that when people have out of body experiences, it's not so much that they're leaving their body so much as that they are rejoining the collective intelligence out there. But I have no idea how it's all supposed to work or how to measure it.

I really liked a show called "Ghost Hunters" that aired for 12 years, as they'd attempt to find scientific evidence that ghosts really do exist. I believe they found some evidence. I also really like the idea that psychoanalyst Carl Jung and physicist Wolfgang Pauli came up with called synchronicity. Wikipedia's introduction to the term:
**
Synchronicity (German: Synchronizität) is a concept introduced by analytical psychologist Carl Jung to describe events that coincide in time and appear meaningfully related, yet lack a discoverable causal connection.[1] Jung held this was a healthy function of the mind, that can become harmful within psychosis.[2][3]
**

Source:

Synchronicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another concept I like from Carl Jung is the collective unconsciousness:
**
Collective unconscious (German: kollektives Unbewusstes) refers to the unconscious mind and shared mental concepts. It is generally associated with idealism and was coined by Carl Jung. According to Jung, the human collective unconscious is populated by instincts, as well as by archetypes: ancient primal symbols such as The Great Mother, the Wise Old Man, the Shadow, the Tower, Water, and the Tree of Life.[1] Jung considered the collective unconscious to underpin and surround the unconscious mind, distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He believed that the concept of the collective unconscious helps to explain why similar themes occur in mythologies around the world. He argued that the collective unconscious had a profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences. The psychotherapeutic practice of analytical psychology revolves around examining the patient's relationship to the collective unconscious.
**

Source:

Collective unconscious - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A little more from the same article on the collective unconscious that I found quite interesting:
**
The term "collective unconscious" first appeared in Jung's 1916 essay, "The Structure of the Unconscious".[4] This essay distinguishes between the "personal", Freudian unconscious, filled with sexual fantasies and repressed images, and the "collective" unconscious encompassing the soul of humanity at large.[5]

In "The Significance of Constitution and Heredity in Psychology" (November 1929), Jung wrote:

And the essential thing, psychologically, is that in dreams, fantasies, and other exceptional states of mind the most far-fetched mythological motifs and symbols can appear autochthonously at any time, often, apparently, as the result of particular influences, traditions, and excitations working on the individual, but more often without any sign of them. These "primordial images" or "archetypes," as I have called them, belong to the basic stock of the unconscious psyche and cannot be explained as personal acquisitions. Together they make up that psychic stratum which has been called the collective unconscious.

The existence of the collective unconscious means that individual consciousness is anything but a tabula rasa and is not immune to predetermining influences. On the contrary, it is in the highest degree influenced by inherited presuppositions, quite apart from the unavoidable influences exerted upon it by the environment. The collective unconscious comprises in itself the psychic life of our ancestors right back to the earliest beginnings. It is the matrix of all conscious psychic occurrences, and hence it exerts an influence that compromises the freedom of consciousness in the highest degree, since it is continually striving to lead all conscious processes back into the old paths.[6]

**

 

[Daylight63]

I'll be honest, when it comes to details, I really don't know. I was going for a kind of Star Wars "force" kind of vibe here. I also remember recently seeing or reading something to the effect that when people have out of body experiences, it's not so much that they're leaving their body so much as that they are rejoining the collective intelligence out there. But I have no idea how it's all supposed to work or how to measure it.

I really liked a show called "Ghost Hunters" that aired for 12 years, as they'd attempt to find scientific evidence that ghosts really do exist. I believe they found some evidence. I also really like the idea that psychoanalyst Carl Jung and physicist Wolfgang Pauli came up with called synchronicity. Wikipedia's introduction to the term:
**
Synchronicity (German: Synchronizität) is a concept introduced by analytical psychologist Carl Jung to describe events that coincide in time and appear meaningfully related, yet lack a discoverable causal connection.[1] Jung held this was a healthy function of the mind, that can become harmful within psychosis.[2][3]
**

Source:

Synchronicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another concept I like from Carl Jung is the collective unconsciousness:
**
Collective unconscious (German: kollektives Unbewusstes) refers to the unconscious mind and shared mental concepts. It is generally associated with idealism and was coined by Carl Jung. According to Jung, the human collective unconscious is populated by instincts, as well as by archetypes: ancient primal symbols such as The Great Mother, the Wise Old Man, the Shadow, the Tower, Water, and the Tree of Life.[1] Jung considered the collective unconscious to underpin and surround the unconscious mind, distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He believed that the concept of the collective unconscious helps to explain why similar themes occur in mythologies around the world. He argued that the collective unconscious had a profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences. The psychotherapeutic practice of analytical psychology revolves around examining the patient's relationship to the collective unconscious.
**

Source:

Collective unconscious - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A little more from the same article on the collective unconscious that I found quite interesting:
**
The term "collective unconscious" first appeared in Jung's 1916 essay, "The Structure of the Unconscious".[4] This essay distinguishes between the "personal", Freudian unconscious, filled with sexual fantasies and repressed images, and the "collective" unconscious encompassing the soul of humanity at large.[5]

In "The Significance of Constitution and Heredity in Psychology" (November 1929), Jung wrote:



**

Thanks for that! It is appreciated!

 

[NiftyNiblick]

God is not intelligent, or, why I am a pantheist

Having expert knowledge of panthers hardly makes one a qualified theologist.

 

[Hume]

Can I ask you about this in more detail? What does the idea of a "collective intelligence" mean in this case? What do you mean by an "intelligence"? Is this the concept that, for instance, all the trees and rocks are doing something like "thinking"?

Intelligence is not a function of self-consciousness.

 

[Daylight63]

Intelligence is not a function of self-consciousness.

I didn't necessarily mean that, but I am hoping to better understand what "intelligence" means in cases like this.

To say "God is really an intelligence that suffuses all things" must mean that this invocation of the word "intelligence" has some specific meaning. I keep gravitating toward "thought" but I am curious if the poster had a good response to explain it or if it was sort of one of those "new age" type phrases that really on sounds deep.

 

[Hume]

I didn't necessarily mean that, but I am hoping to better understand what "intelligence" means in cases like this.

To say "God is really an intelligence that suffuses all things" must mean that this invocation of the word "intelligence" has some specific meaning. I keep gravitating toward "thought" but I am curious if the poster had a good response to explain it or if it was sort of one of those "new age" type phrases that really on sounds deep.

I am not going to debate what someone else said.

 

[Daylight63]

I am not going to debate what someone else said.

I don't expect you to. That's why the question wasn't aimed to you. I was just answering your point about intelligence and consciousness.