We can have an intelligent universe without attributing it to some god or agency.I don't expect you to. That's why the question wasn't aimed to you. I was just answering your point about intelligence and consciousness.
We can have an intelligent universe without attributing it to some god or agency.I don't expect you to. That's why the question wasn't aimed to you. I was just answering your point about intelligence and consciousness.
We can have an intelligent universe without attributing it to some god or agency.
Speaking as a self identified Pantheist, my understanding is that Pantheists believe that the universe/multiverse -is- God.
We can have an intelligent universe without attributing it to some god or agency.
Having expert knowledge of panthers hardly makes one a qualified theologist.
This is an interesting conjecture. But does it have any meaning? If the question is "Does God exist?" and the answer is simply redefining some arbitrary thing as God and then pointing to it and saying "that exists ergo God exists" seems like sophistry.Speaking as a self identified Pantheist, my understanding is that Pantheists believe that the universe/multiverse -is- God. Here's Wikipedia's introduction to the term:
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Pantheism is the philosophical and religious belief that reality, the universe, and nature are identical to divinity or a supreme entity.[1] The physical universe is thus understood as an immanent deity, still expanding and creating, which has existed since the beginning of time.[2] The term pantheist designates one who holds both that everything constitutes a unity and that this unity is divine, consisting of an all-encompassing, manifested god or goddess.[3][4] All astronomical objects are thence viewed as parts of a sole deity.
**
Source:
Pantheism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The thing I find about these more abstract conceptions of God is that there seems to be some asymptote at which they approach pure meaninglessness. Not meant as an insult to the concepts but rather as a limitation to how meaningful the conversation can be if it becomes so abstract that language fails utterly to explain it.
Sounds a bit like Aristotle's concept of god.
At some point, people speculating about spiritually are just recycling concepts that have been circulating out there for a long time, because your posts sounds a lot like the Tao in Taoism or Li in Neoconfucianism.
This is an interesting conjecture. But does it have any meaning? If the question is "Does God exist?" and the answer is simply redefining some arbitrary thing as God and then pointing to it and saying "that exists ergo God exists" seems like sophistry.
The thing I find about these more abstract conceptions of God is that there seems to be some asymptote at which they approach pure meaninglessness. Not meant as an insult to the concepts but rather as a limitation to how meaningful the conversation can be if it becomes so abstract that language fails utterly to explain it.
THere is evidence for it. Not to worry, nature, in her wisdom, in your next life, you won't remember this one, or others.God I hope that's not true. I wouldn't want another round of this game.
This atheist sees no problem with forces beyond the power of humans. We live with them every day. What I do have a problem with is a theologically inconsistent concept of God.
Unfortunately there is currently no real way to construct a God that doesn't run afoul of some rule of logic or total abrogation of word meaning in theology.
Then consider the God of Spinoza, pantheism/panentheism, which does not conflict with science, or logic,
Because being an atheist is bad. At least you seem to hold ever atheist in contempt that I've seen on this forum.
Maybe if you understood atheism you wouldn't have such a dim view of all atheists.
I get your attempt to lop me into the super woo crowd, but, no. It's not really like that. I don't do crystals, or channel dead people.It doesn't conflict with science or logic because it is a placeholder without any real meaning. It describes nothing but sounds like "imagination".
Like someone saying "it's ineffible thought embedded in all things suffusing the cosmos with super love energy".
It's drivel that, by merit of its meaninglessness stops any question about it and doesn't require the speaker to even have a clue what it means themselves.
Can I ask you about this in more detail? What does the idea of a "collective intelligence" mean in this case? What do you mean by an "intelligence"? Is this the concept that, for instance, all the trees and rocks are doing something like "thinking"?
Secondly is there anything that actually supports the idea? (Not intended as a hit against the thought, but rather for me to better understand this form of pantheism which I am reasonably certain is not uncommon).
Thanks.
God is not intelligent.
Or rather, God is not an intelligence. The distinction is significant. God is an abstraction, and a mystery.
What I mean is that, in my brand of pantheism, there is a spiritual basis to life, that there is spirituality permeating all things and this divine source is not an intelligence. It is just source, a spiritual source sans intelligence. So, to say it is intelligent or stupid presumes intelligence, and given that it is not, these descriptors are not applicable.
The simplest definition of Pantheism is that it is the belief that God is not a separate, personal being, but rather that God and the universe are the same. In this view, everything in the natural world is a part of God, and God is present in all things. I have taken this idea and put my own stamp on it, and for lack of a better term, pantheism is much closer to how I see the world, on a spiritual plane, than anything else. Always remember, to a pantheist, his 'God' is not a personal God, or a God in any sense of it's traditional and historical definition, mono or poly. It is more of a non falsifiable force that permeates all things, more or less.
Now, I cannot be so arrogant to presume these things as fact, so preface all that I write on the subject with 'in my opinion...it is my belief that.....'., noting that to assert this preface on everything I express about it would be cumbersome, so just assume it henceforth.
My God is not theistic nor deistic, it is more on the Einsteinian pantheistic model. It does not intervene or answer prayers, and without undermining prayer, because, in my view, true prayer is meditation and meditation is the fastest path to God. This God is our native state, it is our destiny, our natural heritage and all souls, like bubbles in in the ocean, are bubbling upward and will eventually reach the sky, it is inevitable. The only 'hell' is the misery we create for ourselves but it is not permanent. Through this 'hell' we are forged like one forges steel through a furnace. Trouble, difficulty, pain and misery and the like, are the means by which we grow. There are higher states where misery fades and earth's density hasn't reached it, though it has on other planets. Each of us will eventually evolve to higher densities and reincarnate on planets where there are highers densities, (no Martha, Humans are not the brightest bulb on the food chain) where life exists without pain and misery and each of us has this to look forward to. That is the extent of my 'faith'.
This divine source is welling up everywhere. For me, this is the only thing that makes sense and the nice thing about it it does not conflict with science and where it does agree with religion insofar as that it is taken on faith as it is not falsifiable.
This divine source is not a personal god, and there is no such thing as a personal god. This divine source permeates all things, is the source of all things, and resides at the center of the human soul, whereupon all living things are but tentacles on the octopus of god. But, where that metaphor breaks down is that an octopus is has intelligence, and God does not, as God is beyond intelligence and incomprehensible. This divine source does not exist in time and space, it is behind it, the source of it, beyond it, but reachable, nevertheless. Once achieved, once one returns to native state, life, as you have known it, becomes a moot point -- life becomes moot.
The only way to find God is to find oneself. It has been said, 'Know thyself, and the truth shall set you free'. Now, that quote can be attributed to someone or some thing, but I believe it is older than our planet and has been around for billions of years. No, it's just a hunch, sure, I could be wrong, probably am wrong.
Much of my philosophy is borrowed from ancient eastern philosophy and a few modern mystics, sages.
All of them teach reincarnation, and I take reincarnation on faith, as well, not to mention there is some evidence for it. It is also logical to me.
When we die, our essential selves, our souls, noting that "I' and the 'soul' are the same thing, we do not perish. Death is an illusion and we are eternal.
The basic premise of eastern philosophy is that you keep coming back, you grow spiritually a little bit with each life, and this continues for however long it takes for the individual, the soul, to reach the Godhead, AKA 'self-realization', 'samadhi', 'nirvana' or 'heaven' or whatever term endears one the most. It has been said by most of these mystics that one can accelerate the process via meditation, or the modern term now is 'mindfulness' techniques. I also believe that during the first century or first few centuries when Christianity was coagulating and forming into various factions and struggling to achieve something, the Gnostic Christians believed that Christ had a secret, esoteric teaching and that teaching was more in tune with eastern philosophical concepts, accepted reincarnation, and it was Orthodoxy which deviated from Christ, whereupon they cherry picked his teachings to conform to that which would empower the political power of the church.
This is my faith, this is what I believe. I just thought I would share these ideas with anyone who cares to read them, and/or dispute or be amused by them.
As a side, but related, note; In in the context of non-zero probability, assuming infinity, abstract or real, all that is possible, is inevitable. (See if you can falsify that one). Life is possible, this much we know, and infinity, in terms of non-zero probability, if it is possible, it will occur, eventually, though not assured at any point. Thus we have life. So, in a sense, it is infinity that is the mother of all that is possible. Now, some things are impossible. Anyway, compared to infinity, all that is finite is infinitesimal. That is why all arguments that go 'there are too many gazillions of factors to be aligned in space for anything to happen by chance (the argument for 'intelligent design'), are specious logic'.
Thanks for reading.
There is no way to prove 'pantheism' or 'panentheism'. It's like this, some folks, such as myself, can sense there is a spiritual basis to life.
It's a sensitivity. Some have it, some don't. Dogs can smell things on a level incomprehensible to humans.
The only difference is we can prove a dog's olfactory senses are superior, not so with humans and 'spirit-sensitivity'.
Look into a child's eyes, or the eyes of an affectionate puppy. The sentience, it has spiritual essence. Can you see it?
Ether you can sense it, see it, or you can't.
Pantheism. Aristotle does not say God is everywhere.Spinoza, actually.
I have no interest in pantheism. Just another Christian doctrine.Speaking as a self identified Pantheist, my understanding is that Pantheists believe that the universe/multiverse -is- God. Here's Wikipedia's introduction to the term:
**
Pantheism is the philosophical and religious belief that reality, the universe, and nature are identical to divinity or a supreme entity.[1] The physical universe is thus understood as an immanent deity, still expanding and creating, which has existed since the beginning of time.[2] The term pantheist designates one who holds both that everything constitutes a unity and that this unity is divine, consisting of an all-encompassing, manifested god or goddess.[3][4] All astronomical objects are thence viewed as parts of a sole deity.
**
Source:
Pantheism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It's still fun to dance around the margins of these things and learn about them, even if we aren't really coming up with our own deeply original and unique ideas. It's been said that all of western philosophy is just a series of footnotes to Plato, and all of western ethics are just a series of footnotes to the Sermon on the Mount.Sure, one could argue that there are no original thoughts. So, then, what, we stop talking? I'm a big fan of the Tao, and Buddhism, Sufism, Christian Gnosticism, Hasidism/Jewish mysticism, and things esoteric.