APP - Harkin says bribes are just "small stuff"

They had over 60 years to discuss and negotiate and come up with something. Over those years country by country have adopted universal plans. The need was always apparent but nothing was done. A consensus can never be reached if one side doesn't want/believe in what the consensus is concerning.

Senator Harkin expressed it perfectly when he said, "We have to keep our eyes on what we're trying to do here. We're trying to cross a demarcation line. On one side is health care as a privilege, on the other side is health care as a right. With these votes, with the vote that we'll take before Christmas, we will cross that line finally and say that health care is a right of all Americans."

Until that line is crossed there can't be any consensus, let alone anything incredible, because the two sides are not aiming for the same result. It's like two people trying to agree on the best route to take when they have different destinations in mind. There will never be a consensus. It's impossible.

All I can say to soothe the fears of others is there isn't one country that has changed to a universal plan and their citizens have regretted it. Not one country. The odds of the US government not being able to ensure adequate medical care for it's citizens is not a reasonable concern.
Yet they only spent weeks discussing, had to buy votes with direct violation of the equal taxation clause, and passed it by once again disallowing members to have meetings with constituency beforehand. Yeah, all signs that they are passing some real well-thought legislation that doesn't need to be passed in the early hours or dead of night in order to get the stink past the unwilling populace...

Again. What "works" barely elsewhere can be improved upon by the US without centralizing the solution in government. You have a right to bear arms, all without universal arms coverage forced upon you by the government. We do a good job at gaining full coverage of things like that....
 
I neither support nor am against the Senators joining the plan. Was that the question?
Yes, you merely question why they should bother when they have a better plan available to them. You don't bother to question why those who are supposed to be working for the people are quite literally setting themselves above the people. You blindly accept the elitism and class distinctions between government leadership and we muddling commoners that comes with moving farther and farther leftward in economic policies.
 
I neither support nor am against the Senators joining the plan. Was that the question?

So you don't care that the elected officials have a insurance program, that no regular voter will ever be able to have??

But since the Insurnace Reform Bill is so great; why wouldn't you want the elected officials to support it, by using it themselves??
 
Zoinks...it's no wonder you can lecture me on posting, seeing as how you provide litterally SCADS on information to back up your putdowns.

I am humbled...
Why would you think that was a put down?

As for the information "lack"... It's probably because we have written reams worth of information on this subject on this very board, as you actually were sometimes a participant in. It seems you seek out chances to promptly "forget" any conversation you participated in, in order to try to "protect" others from perceived "putdowns". We'll pretend your post doesn't exist so we don't have to look embarrassed for your apparent lack of memory.
 
Are you making the claim that universal plans cover anything and everything? Are you suggesting that there are no limits on what types of treatments are paid for under which circumstances? Because if you truly believe such is true, then you are deluded beyond belief what exactly is entailed in a universal care system.

ANY system whose purpose it is to allocate limited resources among a population does so by determining who gets what under what circumstances. The recent fiasco dealing with H1N1 is a prime example. Limited resources and sudden high demand resulted in GOVERNMENT policies that stated, quite unequivocally, who was to receive the vaccine and who would have to wait for supply to catch up with demand. That is the REALITY of health care that liberals absolutely refuse to acknowledge. Health care is a LIMITED resource. There are only so many doctors, medicines, hospital beds, xray machines, etc. etc. etc. As such, reality dictates there must be a method of distribution which includes rationing when demand outstrips supply. And following this reality to the only available conclusion, SOMEONE, somewhere, will be making the decisions guiding distribution, allocation, and rationing.

There are limits what is paid for under universal care, and therefore there is a system in place for all universal care system in which decisions are made to determine those limits. To deny this only indicates either and extreme ignorance of reality, or one willing to lie in order to support their position on the topic.

First, the shortage of the vaccine was not due to government incompetence. The shortage was due to the manufacturing of it by private companies.

Second, of course the government decided who would receive the vaccine. Pregnant women, children, etc.

I'm not sure what you're implying but if you feel some dude with a fat wallet should be able to buy medication that is in short supply while a pregnant woman or a child goes without we're definitely on a different page.

As for limited resources we come back to the same nonsense that was and is spouted about a lack of housing for the homeless. Did you notice how many houses and condos and apartments were built in recent years?

In the last five to seven years in my neighborhood literally blocks of treed land were cleared and homes and apartment buildings were built. Where did all that material come from? How could they get so many cement trucks to pour foundations? Where did all the roofing material come from? The doors and windows? How did we go from "there just isn't enough homes available" to "buy an extra one as an investment"?

If health care is a limited resource it can be corrected just as easily as limited housing was corrected. Medicines, hospital beds and xray machines can be built. Yes, even additional doctors can be added if the government decides to subsidize the outrageous educational costs and have the graduating doctors work under a government plan for a period of time after graduation. Intelligent, financially strapped young people would jump at the chance to train as a doctor even if they would have to work at a limited salary for a period of time after graduation because they wouldn't have a mountain of debt to pay off.

Finally, universal plans do not cover everything and anything. Of course, neither do the most comprehensive insurance policies but you can bet universal plans cover more than any private plan regarding actual medical procedures.

No, universal plans do not cover private rooms and private nurses and someone to tell you a story before bed. They cover medical procedures and if a broken arm is covered it's covered for babies as well as old men and it's covered regardless of how it was broken.

When it comes to limited resources who should do without remembering the "limited" was due to private companies, not the government? The private companies miscalculated/had problems with the incubation stage. Then, again, there's nothing like producing just a little too little to drive up the price of anything.

As I previously noted countries with universal plans spend approximately half of what the US spends. Consider all the rants about waiting and a lack of doctors and then consider what the plan would be like if the budgets were doubled.

The majority of the citizens in those countries balance waiting with costs. If the waiting was a bad as the RW propaganda espouses the people would vote for an increase in expenditure with a corresponding increase in tax.

There is no unmanageable shortage. There are no lies. There is no mystery. It couldn't be more straight forward. That is the reality.
 
It is wrong to take away one persons property and give it to another person...
Healthcare is a commodity...not a right.

You (the customer), barters with a professional (whoever) for his knowledge or talent, THAT is your right..........
as it is your right to barter your talents and knowledge with those that need what you have....
 
What "works" barely elsewhere can be improved upon by the US without centralizing the solution in government.

How did you come to that conclusion? Considering the history of negotiations and the length of time that has passed since the topic was brought up for discussion what leads you to believe it's possible? When/where did you see any sign of hope?

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Yet they only spent weeks discussing, had to buy votes with direct violation of the equal taxation clause, and passed it by once again disallowing members to have meetings with constituency beforehand. Yeah, all signs that they are passing some real well-thought legislation that doesn't need to be passed in the early hours or dead of night in order to get the stink past the unwilling populace...

Again. What "works" barely elsewhere can be improved upon by the US without centralizing the solution in government. You have a right to bear arms, all without universal arms coverage forced upon you by the government. We do a good job at gaining full coverage of things like that....
 
First, the shortage of the vaccine was not due to government incompetence. The shortage was due to the manufacturing of it by private companies.

Second, of course the government decided who would receive the vaccine. Pregnant women, children, etc.

I'm not sure what you're implying but if you feel some dude with a fat wallet should be able to buy medication that is in short supply while a pregnant woman or a child goes without we're definitely on a different page.

As for limited resources we come back to the same nonsense that was and is spouted about a lack of housing for the homeless. Did you notice how many houses and condos and apartments were built in recent years?

In the last five to seven years in my neighborhood literally blocks of treed land were cleared and homes and apartment buildings were built. Where did all that material come from? How could they get so many cement trucks to pour foundations? Where did all the roofing material come from? The doors and windows? How did we go from "there just isn't enough homes available" to "buy an extra one as an investment"?

If health care is a limited resource it can be corrected just as easily as limited housing was corrected. Medicines, hospital beds and xray machines can be built. Yes, even additional doctors can be added if the government decides to subsidize the outrageous educational costs and have the graduating doctors work under a government plan for a period of time after graduation. Intelligent, financially strapped young people would jump at the chance to train as a doctor even if they would have to work at a limited salary for a period of time after graduation because they wouldn't have a mountain of debt to pay off.

Finally, universal plans do not cover everything and anything. Of course, neither do the most comprehensive insurance policies but you can bet universal plans cover more than any private plan regarding actual medical procedures.

No, universal plans do not cover private rooms and private nurses and someone to tell you a story before bed. They cover medical procedures and if a broken arm is covered it's covered for babies as well as old men and it's covered regardless of how it was broken.

When it comes to limited resources who should do without remembering the "limited" was due to private companies, not the government? The private companies miscalculated/had problems with the incubation stage. Then, again, there's nothing like producing just a little too little to drive up the price of anything.

As I previously noted countries with universal plans spend approximately half of what the US spends. Consider all the rants about waiting and a lack of doctors and then consider what the plan would be like if the budgets were doubled.

The majority of the citizens in those countries balance waiting with costs. If the waiting was a bad as the RW propaganda espouses the people would vote for an increase in expenditure with a corresponding increase in tax.

There is no unmanageable shortage. There are no lies. There is no mystery. It couldn't be more straight forward. That is the reality.
You haven't a foggy clue what reality is. Reality is it does not matter who is in charge, health care is NOT an unlimited resource. Blaming companies for not providing enough is typical socialist crap.

And the point of it all flies right by you. You admit that universal care will not cover everything. But you do not acknowledge, refuse to even discuss, that in not covering everything, SOMEONE MAKES THOSE DECISIONS! That means that under your desired government plan those decisions will be made by government bureaucrats. There is a big section of the health care bill devoted to describing the who, what their powers will be, etc. And the FOCUS of these all-powerful decision makers who determine what will and will not be paid for, to include what coverage makes a private carrier acceptable to the insurance clearing house, will be keeping costs down. This overriding concern of cost control is by MANDATE contained in the very bill that creates the decision making body.

Now, tell me how that will be functionally different from an insurance company who also bases their decisions on keeping costs down? At least with insurance companies there is the added incentive of balancing cost cutting with offering types of coverage that make their policies desirable over a competitor's policies.
 
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How did you come to that conclusion? Considering the history of negotiations and the length of time that has passed since the topic was brought up for discussion what leads you to believe it's possible? When/where did you see any sign of hope?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Where did I come to this conclusion? Seriously, this is weak.

First, there was clearly no rush as evinced by the five year wait for it to even begin. Since we had five years we had time to come up with something far better than a weak copy of mediocre European systems. Instead what we got was a desperate drive towards any destination because they believed they could later change it to what they "really wanted."

One line of hope still survives, this mess barely passed by one vote in the House, it may get ugly during reconciliation.

My hope is that wiping the board clean will get people to start actual compromise legislation that actually allows real ideas from all comers like Obama mentioned and actually can be done openly (again promised, CSPAN was constantly mentioned by the Great One) because the legislation is good enough for constituents to understand the benefit and it won't begin from "Government Central" as the starting and ending point.
 
You haven't a foggy clue what reality is. Reality is it does not matter who is in charge, health care is NOT an unlimited resource. Blaming companies for not providing enough is typical socialist crap.

It was a problem with private companies that delayed the vaccine. Check it out. They miscalculated the incubation stage so it has nothing to do with government incompetence.

As for health care being an unlimited resource there are enough resources to adequately look after the ill. To imply dozens of countries can do it and their citizens are happy but, somehow, the US couldn't manage it is just silliness.

And the point of it all flies right by you. You admit that universal care will not cover everything. But you do not acknowledge, refuse to even discuss, that in not covering everything, SOMEONE MAKES THOSE DECISIONS! That means that under your desired government plan those decisions will be made by government bureaucrats. There is a big section of the health care bill devoted to describing the who, what their powers will be, etc. And the FOCUS of these all-powerful decision makers who determine what will and will not be paid for, to include what coverage makes a private carrier acceptable to the insurance clearing house, will be keeping costs down. This overriding concern of cost control is by MANDATE contained in the very bill that creates the decision making body.

I explained some of the things the "everything" may include. Private rooms. Private nurses. The non-essentials.

Here's an example to do with car insurance. I was watching an AD and the policy includes a provision that should one be involved in an accident and are injured to the point where they can not walk their dog, should they have a dog, the insurance will cover the cost of a dog-walker. I kid you not.

Are you able to vote out the CEO of an insurance company if you don't like the policy? You can with the government. Also, government insurance has to offer broad coverage because it includes so many different people in different circumstances.

Take cancer, for example. Because it is so prevalent the people will insist on adequate coverage. Put another way there is a large cancer voting block. Either one has cancer or knows someone who has. A universal plan has to cover the various cancers and treatment.

The same applies to other illnesses. Universal plans have to, by their universal nature, cover more treatments than the majority of private plans. It is not just cheaper coverage. It is more coverage.

Now, tell me how that will be functionally different from an insurance company who also bases their decisions on keeping costs down? At least with insurance companies there is the added incentive of balancing cost cutting with offering types of coverage that make their policies desirable over a competitor's policies.

Types of coverage. How does one determine the medical coverage they'll need let alone the treatments for diseases and injuries they may encounter? The reality is the majority of people take whatever they can afford and hope if something does happen that they're covered.

The larger the group, the lower the rares. It works that way with everything so why wouldn't it work that way with government medical? The answer is it does work that way. Just the combining of everyone in one pool significantly lowers cost and because there is such a diverse group of people more illnesses and injuries are included/covered.
 
You haven't a foggy clue what reality is. Reality is it does not matter who is in charge, health care is NOT an unlimited resource. Blaming companies for not providing enough is typical socialist crap.

And the point of it all flies right by you. You admit that universal care will not cover everything. But you do not acknowledge, refuse to even discuss, that in not covering everything, SOMEONE MAKES THOSE DECISIONS! That means that under your desired government plan those decisions will be made by government bureaucrats. There is a big section of the health care bill devoted to describing the who, what their powers will be, etc. And the FOCUS of these all-powerful decision makers who determine what will and will not be paid for, to include what coverage makes a private carrier acceptable to the insurance clearing house, will be keeping costs down. This overriding concern of cost control is by MANDATE contained in the very bill that creates the decision making body.

Now, tell me how that will be functionally different from an insurance company who also bases their decisions on keeping costs down? At least with insurance companies there is the added incentive of balancing cost cutting with offering types of coverage that make their policies desirable over a competitor's policies.

Couldn't rep you for this excellent post, clearly stated and to the point...the only conclusion you can make is, hes a partisan hack, a socialist, that just refuses to get it....
The K.Marx Democrats convinced him he is entitled to a 'new' taxpayer funded right, healthcare, and he swallows it hook, line, and sinker....
 
It was a problem with private companies that delayed the vaccine. Check it out. They miscalculated the incubation stage so it has nothing to do with government incompetence.
And once again the point flies right by your unwilling head. Not ONCE did I say or imply that the lack of vacccine was due to government incompetence. What I DID say was that DUE to the shortage, the government stepped in and made decisions as to who got the vaccines. Can you not see the point here? You claim that it will be different, but the reality is there will always be more demand for medical facilities than there are available, this is true in a free market system (which is not really free market), it is true in a single payer system, and it is true in those beloved European systems you laud so much.

The shortage is not as bad as many opposed to universal care would like to have people believe, but it is there, and it is very real. There are delays in certain types of procedures based on a government determined triage protocol. Anyone who says there are not those types of things going on at all are every bit the liars as those who claim two-month terminal cancer patients wait 4 months.

As for health care being an unlimited resource there are enough resources to adequately look after the ill. To imply dozens of countries can do it and their citizens are happy but, somehow, the US couldn't manage it is just silliness.
Again, not, there is not. Health care, just as every other concrete resource in existence, is limited. Dozens of other countries "do it" by managing the resources and making DECISIONS who is covered under what circumstances. You can deny that reality all you want. But if you continue to try to claim that the European systems do not distribute their health care resources by limiting access according to a protocol of triage hierarchy, then I can only conclude you are either ignorant beyond help, or an outright head-up-the-donkey's-ass liar.



I explained some of the things the "everything" may include. Private rooms. Private nurses. The non-essentials.
Yes, and you completely and deliberately ignored others, such as annual mammograms starting at age 40.

Here's an example to do with car insurance. I was watching an AD and the policy includes a provision that should one be involved in an accident and are injured to the point where they can not walk their dog, should they have a dog, the insurance will cover the cost of a dog-walker. I kid you not.
So? Is this a government mandated policy? Or is it a free choice policy for people willing to pay extra for dog walking coverage?

Are you able to vote out the CEO of an insurance company if you don't like the policy? You can with the government. Also, government insurance has to offer broad coverage because it includes so many different people in different circumstances.
And if the government makes a bad law which cannot be repealed? What good does it do to change then?

Take cancer, for example. Because it is so prevalent the people will insist on adequate coverage. Put another way there is a large cancer voting block. Either one has cancer or knows someone who has. A universal plan has to cover the various cancers and treatment.
Yes, and the vast majority of private policies also cover cancer. A person can buy a basic policy that has a maximum lifetime limit, and for not much more add a catastrophic policy that only kicks in if that ceiling is breached. Much cheaper than buying a no-ceiling policy right off the rack, which is what the government plan is insisting all policies become.

The same applies to other illnesses. Universal plans have to, by their universal nature, cover more treatments than the majority of private plans. It is not just cheaper coverage. It is more coverage.
Sorry, but that is an outright lie. Universal refers to who is covered, not what is covered. Your rhetoric shows that you have zero actual knowledge of what universal plans do and do not cover compared to private plans. Ever wonder why emergency facilities are used even more than ours are in areas using universal coverage? Because emergency visits are automatically covered, whereas non-emergency visits for the same condition may not be covered. About the only place universal plans consistently exceed most private plans is in the area of preventative treatments. And we already see how our government is going to approach that particular area: by completely ignoring decades of medical history and cutting mammograms by over 60%. With that kind of blatant maneuvering, I seriously doubt other types of preventative treatments will fair any better.


Types of coverage. How does one determine the medical coverage they'll need let alone the treatments for diseases and injuries they may encounter? The reality is the majority of people take whatever they can afford and hope if something does happen that they're covered.
In too many cases that is true, and it is a factor which should be addressed. However, if we were to take the smart road, find out why health care costs have risen at three+ times the inflation rate, and control those factors driving costs out of control, the affordability of coverage, therefore the freedom to choose better policies, would become automatically more manageable. There's more than one way to skin a cat. But there is only one smart way. The ways being discussed by government and supported by their dronebots are NOT the smart ways.

The larger the group, the lower the rares. It works that way with everything so why wouldn't it work that way with government medical? The answer is it does work that way. Just the combining of everyone in one pool significantly lowers cost and because there is such a diverse group of people more illnesses and injuries are included/covered.
Yes, which is why the bill includes forcing young, healthy people to buy unwanted coverage under threat of fines and or actual jail time. (which no one yet has explained how that requirement is any different from simply taxing those people for the same purpose.)

The problem is, and every population statistic that includes heath factors in existence bears this out, that little aspect of the plan will not work. Those who are voluntarily without insurance, or only carry accident or major medical because they are healthy cannot hope to make up for those who are involuntarily without coverage who need treatment. (And the more things that are covered, the wider the disparity will be) Add to that the various requirements placed on carriers to cover things they do not cover under lower priced policies,** and the end result is coverage costs will go up, not down. The "larger the group, the lower the rates" has a limit before the law of diminishing returns kicks in.


** And here is another source of deliberate misinformation from the government plan proponents. When complaining about lack in adequate coverage, ceilings on annual and lifetime benefits, etc, they always look to the cheapest policies available. When they compare the price of coverage under their proposed plan to current prices, they invariably use the higher priced policies. The end result is the implication their plan will provide better coverage (by comparing it to the cheap policies) for less cost than the private policies (by comparing to the higher priced policies).
 
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Where did I come to this conclusion? Seriously, this is weak.

In msg 101. You wrote, "What "works" barely elsewhere can be improved upon by the US without centralizing the solution in government."

You can't be serious. If it could have been improved it would have been improved over the multi-generations who have discussed it.

First, there was clearly no rush as evinced by the five year wait for it to even begin. Since we had five years we had time to come up with something far better than a weak copy of mediocre European systems. Instead what we got was a desperate drive towards any destination because they believed they could later change it to what they "really wanted."

The five year wait is precisely because of the opposition to any plan. What is decided today doesn't take effect for five years. A lot can happen to postpone or outright cancel implementation of the plan and you believe the private citizen could have found a solution? (I hope you're sharing the egg-nog.)

If the Republicans win in '12 I doubt that plan will see the light of day.

My hope is that wiping the board clean will get people to start actual compromise legislation that actually allows real ideas from all comers like Obama mentioned and actually can be done openly (again promised, CSPAN was constantly mentioned by the Great One) because the legislation is good enough for constituents to understand the benefit and it won't begin from "Government Central" as the starting and ending point.

Social programs remind me of that famous poem "First they Came..."

First they wanted unemployment insurance but I opposed it because I wasn't unemployed.
Then they wanted a retirement plan but I opposed it because I wasn't anywhere near retirement.
Then they wanted welfare but I opposed it because I could always get a job.
Then they wanted a medical plan but I opposed it because I wasn't sick.
Then misfortune struck and there were no services available to help me.
 
You can't be serious. If it could have been improved it would have been improved over the multi-generations who have discussed it.

Are you serious?

What kind of logic is that?

If it can be it WOULD have been done? That's horrible thinking. Your reasoning abilities are quite limited.
 
Are you serious?

What kind of logic is that?

If it can be it WOULD have been done? That's horrible thinking. Your reasoning abilities are quite limited.

Actually, it's your reasoning abilities that are limited. It could have been done. It's not rocket science. Dozens of other countries have done it.

The difference here is some people don't want it done.
 
In msg 101. You wrote, "What "works" barely elsewhere can be improved upon by the US without centralizing the solution in government."

You can't be serious. If it could have been improved it would have been improved over the multi-generations who have discussed it.



The five year wait is precisely because of the opposition to any plan. What is decided today doesn't take effect for five years. A lot can happen to postpone or outright cancel implementation of the plan and you believe the private citizen could have found a solution? (I hope you're sharing the egg-nog.)

If the Republicans win in '12 I doubt that plan will see the light of day.



Social programs remind me of that famous poem "First they Came..."

First they wanted unemployment insurance but I opposed it because I wasn't unemployed.
Then they wanted a retirement plan but I opposed it because I wasn't anywhere near retirement.
Then they wanted welfare but I opposed it because I could always get a job.
Then they wanted a medical plan but I opposed it because I wasn't sick.
Then misfortune struck and there were no services available to help me.

First they wanted to take our gun rights away, I didn't care, I had no guns...
Then they wanted to close the Churchs, I didn't care, I wasn't religious...
Then they wanted to to shut down conservative talk radio, I didn't care, i never listen to the radio...
Then they wanted to tax only the "rich", I didn't care, I wasn't "rich"....
Then they forced everyone to buy health insurance....next it'll probably be a GM auto....
Then they forced me to help people pay for their home loans....
and taught my children in their schools my morals were neanderthal...
etc, etc, etc....
 
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