APP - Harkin says bribes are just "small stuff"

They are covered.

I posted a story before about a Canadian guy who had cancer and wanted treatment at the local hospital. Because he lived in a small town he had to drive to a facility that had the machine I previously mentioned. The drive was less than 40 miles each way. Two weekly treatments. Total 160 miles per week.

He ranted to the local papers and TV station demanding the government pay his gas because, as a taxpayer, he was entitled to free medical care. Plus, his wife was available to drive him. It was strictly a matter of money, money for gas.

That is what constituted his claim he was being denied medical treatment.

However, the government did suggest a place he could go. :rofl:.

You're just in denial about rationing.
 
Don't believe the gossip. Do a Google. Check for yourself.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588779662250705.html

President Obama objects when people use the word "rationing" in regards to government-run health care. But rationing is inevitable if we simply expand government control without fixing the way health care is reimbursed so that doctors and patients become sensitive to issues of price and quality.

Like Medicare's recent decisions to curtail the use of virtual colonoscopies, certain wound-healing devices, and even a branded asthma drug, the board's decisions will be one-size-fits-all restrictions. Such restrictions don't respect variation in preferences and disease, which make costly products suitable for some even if they are wasteful when prescribed to everyone.

Moreover, these health boards prove that policy makers know they'll need to ration care but want to absolve themselves of responsibility. Some in Congress and the Obama administration recently tipped their hand on this goal by proposing to make recommendations of the current Medicare Payment Advisory Committee (MedPAC) legally binding rather than mere advice to Congress. Any new health board's mission will also expand over time, just as MedPAC's mandate grew to encompass medical practice issues not envisioned when it was created.

The idea of an omnipotent board that makes unpopular decisions on access and price isn't a new construct. It's a European import. In countries such as France and Germany, layers of bureaucracy like health boards have been specifically engineered to delay the adoption of new medical products and services, thus lowering spending.

In France, assessment of medical products is done by the Committee for the Evaluation of Medicines. Reimbursement rates are set by the National Union of Sickness Insurance Funds, a group that also negotiates pay to doctors.

In Germany, the Federal Joint Committee regulates reimbursement and restrictions on prescribing, while the Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Healthcare does formal cost-effectiveness analysis. The Social Insurance Organization, technically a part of the Federal Joint Committee, is in charge of setting prices through a defined formula that monitors doctors' prescribing behavior and sets their practice budgets. In the past 12 months, the 15 medical products and services that cleared this process spent an average 35 months under review. (The shortest review was 19 months, the longest 51.)

In short, other countries where government plays a large role in health care aren't shy about rationing. Mr. Obama's budget director has acknowledged that rationing reduces costs. Peter Orszag told Congress last year when he headed the Congressional Budget Office that spending can be "moderated" if "diffusion of existing costly services were slowed."

Medicare can already be painstakingly slow. Appealing to it takes patients an average 21 months according to a 2003 Government Accountability Office report (17 months involve administrative processing). Layers of commissions and health boards would delay access still further.

When asked to judge the constitutionality of the Senate HELP committee proposal, there's a reason why the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service said that the proposed Medical Advisory Council "raises potentially significant constitutional concerns." Our Founders thought politicians should be accountable when it comes to citizens' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of heart surgery.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588779662250705.html

President Obama objects when people use the word "rationing" in regards to government-run health care. But rationing is inevitable if we simply expand government control without fixing the way health care is reimbursed so that doctors and patients become sensitive to issues of price and quality.

Like Medicare's recent decisions to curtail the use of virtual colonoscopies, certain wound-healing devices, and even a branded asthma drug, the board's decisions will be one-size-fits-all restrictions. Such restrictions don't respect variation in preferences and disease, which make costly products suitable for some even if they are wasteful when prescribed to everyone.

Moreover, these health boards prove that policy makers know they'll need to ration care but want to absolve themselves of responsibility. Some in Congress and the Obama administration recently tipped their hand on this goal by proposing to make recommendations of the current Medicare Payment Advisory Committee (MedPAC) legally binding rather than mere advice to Congress. Any new health board's mission will also expand over time, just as MedPAC's mandate grew to encompass medical practice issues not envisioned when it was created.

The idea of an omnipotent board that makes unpopular decisions on access and price isn't a new construct. It's a European import. In countries such as France and Germany, layers of bureaucracy like health boards have been specifically engineered to delay the adoption of new medical products and services, thus lowering spending.

In France, assessment of medical products is done by the Committee for the Evaluation of Medicines. Reimbursement rates are set by the National Union of Sickness Insurance Funds, a group that also negotiates pay to doctors.

In Germany, the Federal Joint Committee regulates reimbursement and restrictions on prescribing, while the Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Healthcare does formal cost-effectiveness analysis. The Social Insurance Organization, technically a part of the Federal Joint Committee, is in charge of setting prices through a defined formula that monitors doctors' prescribing behavior and sets their practice budgets. In the past 12 months, the 15 medical products and services that cleared this process spent an average 35 months under review. (The shortest review was 19 months, the longest 51.)

In short, other countries where government plays a large role in health care aren't shy about rationing. Mr. Obama's budget director has acknowledged that rationing reduces costs. Peter Orszag told Congress last year when he headed the Congressional Budget Office that spending can be "moderated" if "diffusion of existing costly services were slowed."

Medicare can already be painstakingly slow. Appealing to it takes patients an average 21 months according to a 2003 Government Accountability Office report (17 months involve administrative processing). Layers of commissions and health boards would delay access still further.

When asked to judge the constitutionality of the Senate HELP committee proposal, there's a reason why the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service said that the proposed Medical Advisory Council "raises potentially significant constitutional concerns." Our Founders thought politicians should be accountable when it comes to citizens' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of heart surgery.

I did get the punch line. The author "Dr. Gottlieb....is partner to a firm that invests in health-care companies." :)

While emotions and philosophical views tend to dominate discussions one must take a logical look. Every country he mentions spend half of what the US spends per capita. So, logically speaking, if we are going to compare medical services we have to compare costs and in order to make a logical comparison we have to take into account what medical services would be available in those countries if their budgets were increased 100%.

It's like comparing a $50,000 automobile to a $25,000 automobile and telling the owner of the cheaper car he got ripped off because he didn't get a leather interior or an eight speaker stereo system.

If the people wanted the most expensive medical services available they would vote for the politician who campaigned on that and they would be willing to pay the appropriate taxes.

Looked at another way if the US adopted any of those plans medical costs would drop 50%.

It all depends on what the people want. We can easily see what one gets for 50% less than what is currently being spent. Obviously, if people want to continue the current spending they will get a plan much superior to any of those countries.
 
I did get the punch line. The author "Dr. Gottlieb....is partner to a firm that invests in health-care companies." :)

While emotions and philosophical views tend to dominate discussions one must take a logical look. Every country he mentions spend half of what the US spends per capita. So, logically speaking, if we are going to compare medical services we have to compare costs and in order to make a logical comparison we have to take into account what medical services would be available in those countries if their budgets were increased 100%.

It's like comparing a $50,000 automobile to a $25,000 automobile and telling the owner of the cheaper car he got ripped off because he didn't get a leather interior or an eight speaker stereo system.

If the people wanted the most expensive medical services available they would vote for the politician who campaigned on that and they would be willing to pay the appropriate taxes.

Looked at another way if the US adopted any of those plans medical costs would drop 50%.

It all depends on what the people want. We can easily see what one gets for 50% less than what is currently being spent. Obviously, if people want to continue the current spending they will get a plan much superior to any of those countries.

What you have is bureaucratic boards decidign who lives and dies.

Death panels are true.
 
What you have is bureaucratic boards decidign who lives and dies.

Death panels are true.

No they're not true.

Try and understand decisions are not made on a case by case basis like typical insurance companies. That's why doctors phone and consult with insurance companies to see if a certain individual is covered for a certain procedure. That does not occur with universal plans.
 
Obama's health care plan will be written by a committee whose Chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress which hasn't read it, signed by a President who smokes, funded by a Treasury Chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke.

What could possibly go wrong?
 
Obama's health care plan will be written by a committee whose Chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress which hasn't read it, signed by a President who smokes, funded by a Treasury Chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke.

What could possibly go wrong?

Hmmm. Well, when you put it that way.............
 
Of course they're working towards that. It has been proven the world over it is a superior arrangement and people pay according to what taxes they can pay.

It's no different than the military or Police protecting the citizens. People are not protected according to the amount they pay in taxes. They are all protected.

Then how come you aren't for our elected officials signing up for it?? :palm:
 
Obama's health care plan will be written by a committee whose Chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress which hasn't read it, signed by a President who smokes, funded by a Treasury Chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke.

What could possibly go wrong?

:good4u:
 
No they're not true.

Try and understand decisions are not made on a case by case basis like typical insurance companies. That's why doctors phone and consult with insurance companies to see if a certain individual is covered for a certain procedure. That does not occur with universal plans.
Are you making the claim that universal plans cover anything and everything? Are you suggesting that there are no limits on what types of treatments are paid for under which circumstances? Because if you truly believe such is true, then you are deluded beyond belief what exactly is entailed in a universal care system.

ANY system whose purpose it is to allocate limited resources among a population does so by determining who gets what under what circumstances. The recent fiasco dealing with H1N1 is a prime example. Limited resources and sudden high demand resulted in GOVERNMENT policies that stated, quite unequivocally, who was to receive the vaccine and who would have to wait for supply to catch up with demand. That is the REALITY of health care that liberals absolutely refuse to acknowledge. Health care is a LIMITED resource. There are only so many doctors, medicines, hospital beds, xray machines, etc. etc. etc. As such, reality dictates there must be a method of distribution which includes rationing when demand outstrips supply. And following this reality to the only available conclusion, SOMEONE, somewhere, will be making the decisions guiding distribution, allocation, and rationing.

There are limits what is paid for under universal care, and therefore there is a system in place for all universal care system in which decisions are made to determine those limits. To deny this only indicates either and extreme ignorance of reality, or one willing to lie in order to support their position on the topic.
 
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