In Trump's America "Christian" is no longer a religious faith

[StoneByStone]

Again, I agree that people shouldn't believe what Trump says at face value. I see plenty of people who do the equivalent with the mainstream media and with the Democratic party as well, however.

The difference is that the mainstream media and the Democratic party don't lie constantly and they don't lie about things that have already been debunked. So while they do lie here and there, and sometimes just honestly get things wrong, it makes sense to trust them. A person can value truth and still trust someone who isn't right 100% of the time. I'm sure you have people in your life that you trust even though they've gotten things wrong, we all do.

Meanwhile, Trump lies pathologically and his supporters know this. They just don't care because they don't value truth.

Look at how many progressives still cling to the Russia narrative even though the Mueller report turned out to be inconsequential.
How exactly are they normalizing rigged elections? Don't tell me you buy the Russia narrative too, eh?

The Mueller Report was only inconsequential because, again, Trumpcucks don't care what Trump does. The Mueller Report showed that Russia offered Trump help in the election, Trump accepted, and then a secret meeting was held. It also showed that Russia hacked DNC e-mails and Trump committed ten instances of obstruction of justice.
Trump should have been impeached and removed when this all came out.
And now, the Republicans are repeating the lie that the Mueller Report found nothing over and over. Sadly, it's working.

And of course, attempting to bribe the Ukrainian government to launch a phony investigation on Biden is also rigging an election.

If anyone is shifting the Overton window, it's the left. 15 years ago, if you claimed that someone with a penis could identify as a woman and that made them a woman, you'd be laughed at. Now, you might lose your job if you voiced disagreement.

Yes. Moving the Overton Window is not always a bad thing. We've moved the Overton Window so that women and gays can have more rights too. The reason trans rights upset so many people is because it's still new. Eventually, it'll be see as normal like women voting.

15 years ago, if you ran on a platform supporting reparations and free healthcare for illegals, you'd be laughed off of the campaign trail. Now, most of the Dem candidates support these things.

15 years ago, if you said black people can't be racist because racism equals "power + privilege", people would think you're an idiot. Now, it's a commonly accepted definition, since apparently, applying the same standards in speech to every race is no longer en vogue. Go equality, eh?

15 years ago, if you said ICE should be abolished, you'd also be laughed at, but now even Bernie Sanders has voiced support for this idea.

Now those are things I disagree with. Both wings are changing culture as they always have. But like I said, changing culture isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is, sometime it isn't.

Most of the changes have been done by the Left, as the Western world has been moving to the Left ever since the Enlightenment. However, there have been sharp turns to the Right here and there, such as with Fascism, which we're taking another turn towards now.

 

[Saudade]

The difference is that the mainstream media and the Democratic party don't lie constantly and they don't lie about things that have already been debunked. So while they do lie here and there, and sometimes just honestly get things wrong, it makes sense to trust them. A person can value truth and still trust someone who isn't right 100% of the time. I'm sure you have people in your life that you trust even though they've gotten things wrong, we all do.

Meanwhile, Trump lies pathologically and his supporters know this. They just don't care because they don't value truth.

If you believe the Democrats value truth or that the media does... yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

The Mueller Report was only inconsequential because, again, Trumpcucks don't care what Trump does. The Mueller Report showed that Russia offered Trump help in the election, Trump accepted, and then a secret meeting was held. It also showed that Russia hacked DNC e-mails and Trump committed ten instances of obstruction of justice.
Trump should have been impeached and removed when this all came out.
And now, the Republicans are repeating the lie that the Mueller Report found nothing over and over. Sadly, it's working.

And of course, attempting to bribe the Ukrainian government to launch a phony investigation on Biden is also rigging an election.

Yeah, if those are the conclusions you've come to, then I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on that one either.

Yes. Moving the Overton Window is not always a bad thing. We've moved the Overton Window so that women and gays can have more rights too. The reason trans rights upset so many people is because it's still new. Eventually, it'll be see as normal like women voting.

There's a huge difference between letting people marry whoever vs. literally making society redefine what male and female mean. It is truly Orwellian to do that just to avoid offending the mentally ill. Trans people need counseling, not surgery or hormones. Their minds are the problem, not their bodies.

Now those are things I disagree with. Both wings are changing culture as they always have. But like I said, changing culture isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is, sometime it isn't.

Most of the changes have been done by the Left, as the Western world has been moving to the Left ever since the Enlightenment. However, there have been sharp turns to the Right here and there, such as with Fascism, which we're taking another turn towards now.

Again, fascism is about as overused of a word as racism is these days. It's like Hitler comparisons. People called Bush Hitler, and now they're doing it with Trump. It doesn't apply in either case.

 

[StoneByStone]

If you believe the Democrats value truth or that the media does... yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

It's a matter of degree. Yeah, Democrats lie, the media lies, but it's not literally constant. Rational people can support a candidate, knowing that candidate isn't perfect, but also knowing that they're usually alright. There is no excuse for supporting Trump who lies more than he tells the truth.
To put it into perspective, fact-checkers say that during the last election, Hillary lied about 25% of the time, while Trump lied about 70% of the time. If you value truth, you'll either support Hillary or say fuck them both, but you won't support Trump.

Yeah, if those are the conclusions you've come to, then I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on that one either.

Which parts don't you agree with? Like Schiff says, we have written proof that Russia offered help and Trump accepted.

There's a huge difference between letting people marry whoever vs. literally making society redefine what male and female mean. It is truly Orwellian to do that just to avoid offending the mentally ill. Trans people need counseling, not surgery or hormones. Their minds are the problem, not their bodies.

It's not Orwellian because you're still free to misgender people if you want. The only difference is that people will see you as kind of a dick. Same thing with racial slurs. You're free to use racial slurs, but there will be a social backlash. So yeah, nobody is literally making us do anything here.
People with gender dysphoria are required to see psychiatrists before turning to surgery or hormone treatment. However, for some people, transitioning is the only solution, so that's what their doctors recommend. The media, especially right-wing media, has painted a very wrong picture of laws and practices regarding trans people. No man just wakes up one morning deciding to be a woman and then actually gets permission to have the surgery.

Again, fascism is about as overused of a word as racism is these days. It's like Hitler comparisons. People called Bush Hitler, and now they're doing it with Trump. It doesn't apply in either case.

I agree 100% that "Fascism" is overused. Bush and Obama weren't Fascists. However, in the case of Trump, it does fit.
Though Trump really isn't like Hitler, he's more like Göring. An opportunist pretending to be racist in order to gain support.

 

[Saudade]

It's a matter of degree. Yeah, Democrats lie, the media lies, but it's not literally constant. Rational people can support a candidate, knowing that candidate isn't perfect, but also knowing that they're usually alright. There is no excuse for supporting Trump who lies more than he tells the truth.
To put it into perspective, fact-checkers say that during the last election, Hillary lied about 25% of the time, while Trump lied about 70% of the time. If you value truth, you'll either support Hillary or say fuck them both, but you won't support Trump..

I look at politics differently from most. I vote for policies more than the politician him or herself. If Trump got removed and Mike Pence ended up making most of the same policies, I'd be fine with that.

Which parts don't you agree with? Like Schiff says, we have written proof that Russia offered help and Trump accepted.

I disagree with the notion that it made any appreciable difference. As I've stated with other posts, the foreign influence that Russia wields is insignificant compared to various other countries. I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion, mostly because Russia doesn't do much business with us. If China had been the country in question, the media would largely gloss over it, and they definitely would ignore it if Israel was involved.

It's not Orwellian because you're still free to misgender people if you want. The only difference is that people will see you as kind of a dick. Same thing with racial slurs. You're free to use racial slurs, but there will be a social backlash. So yeah, nobody is literally making us do anything here.
People with gender dysphoria are required to see psychiatrists before turning to surgery or hormone treatment. However, for some people, transitioning is the only solution, so that's what their doctors recommend. The media, especially right-wing media, has painted a very wrong picture of laws and practices regarding trans people. No man just wakes up one morning deciding to be a woman and then actually gets permission to have the surgery.

And yet, a lot of people who transition still commit suicide. One of the main arguments for transitioning is that it supposedly makes the person more stable and comfortable in their own skin. The stats don't show this. What seems to actually be true is that people who believe they have gender dysphoria usually have multiple mental problems that lead to depression and suicidal tendencies. In effect, the transition doesn't really seem to improve their situation.

To make things worse, we have people that put children on hormone blockers. An 8 year old doesn't really understand gender well enough to know if he/she is transgender, and yet, we have parents that enable this nonsense. You shouldn't be allowed to begin any hormone therapy or surgery until at least 16.

I agree 100% that "Fascism" is overused. Bush and Obama weren't Fascists. However, in the case of Trump, it does fit.
Though Trump really isn't like Hitler, he's more like Göring. An opportunist pretending to be racist in order to gain support.

How is he pretending to be racist?

 

[Ralph]

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;





I don't support Trump because I think he is a moral man. Being a moral man is between him and his God. I support him because he supports my right to worship or not to worship how I please. Also the Dems all support abortion till the moment of delivery. They will never have my vote as long as they support the slaughter of innocent babies.

Thus the sacrifice of the only MAN that walked this earth void of sin......Jesus the Christ, "But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law.....to REDEEM those born under the law, that we might receive adoption as an heir of God through Christ." -- Gal. 4:4-5.

Jesus is our advocate that stands between our sin and God. The Christ was the perfect sacrifice UNDER THE OLD LAW to fulfill the requirements of the OLD COVENANT.

You purify your soul through obeying the GOSPEL TRUTH (1 Peter 1:22)…..per the conditions of the New Testament of Christ Jesus....the newest and last covenant between God and mankind...THE LAW of GRACE.

Mr. Trump simply adheres to the US RULE OF LAW and our guaranteed rights under the amended BILL OF RIGHTS....specifically the 1st amendment guarantee of religious freedom. Why would anyone support a party that demands religious freedom be removed as a public right protected under our bill of rights....such as the modern leftist democrat party and its mission to remove several of our guarantees found in our Constitution....such as the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 14th amendments? What party just exercised a political tribunal and bragged about not having to abide by THE RULE OF LAW and its due process protections?

What party supports the act murder called abortion? What party supports the anti-first amendment hate group called ANTIFA? What party was found guilty of spying and abusing the civil liberties of US citizens though abusing the FISA system? What party wants to take away your right of self protection guaranteed by our 2nd amendment? Yeah......I know why I support Mr. Trump. There are things worthy of hate. I simply hate FASCISM. Where we go 1 we go all. Merry Qmast.

 

[StoneByStone]

I look at politics differently from most. I vote for policies more than the politician him or herself. If Trump got removed and Mike Pence ended up making most of the same policies, I'd be fine with that.

But how do you know [insert person here] is going through with the policies they promised if they lie constantly?
I think it's a good thing that most Americans vote for the person and the policies, I just think it's bad that honest isn't an important trait anymore.

I disagree with the notion that it made any appreciable difference. As I've stated with other posts, the foreign influence that Russia wields is insignificant compared to various other countries. I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion, mostly because Russia doesn't do much business with us. If China had been the country in question, the media would largely gloss over it, and they definitely would ignore it if Israel was involved.

One of the ways that Russa interfered was through troll accounts spreading Fake News. Which means that most people influenced probably had no idea that the Russian government was involved.
As for the notion that it didn't make a difference, maybe you're right. Maybe the only people who fell for the Fake News articles were a few Boomers who were already going to vote for Trump anyway. But even then, we have the fact that Trump colluded with a foreign government to win an election. Whether they were successful or not is besides the point. Trump got away with it, so now colluding with foreign governments takes a step towards being normal.

And yet, a lot of people who transition still commit suicide. One of the main arguments for transitioning is that it supposedly makes the person more stable and comfortable in their own skin. The stats don't show this. What seems to actually be true is that people who believe they have gender dysphoria usually have multiple mental problems that lead to depression and suicidal tendencies. In effect, the transition doesn't really seem to improve their situation.

Keep in mind, we're also just learning more about gender dysphoria now because it's been a taboo subject for so long. There are going to be people that doctors fail to help.
Overall, most studies show that people are generally happier after getting the surgery, but there are cases of people regretting it. Which sounds about normal, even if this wasn't a fairly new accepted study.

To make things worse, we have people that put children on hormone blockers. An 8 year old doesn't really understand gender well enough to know if he/she is transgender, and yet, we have parents that enable this nonsense. You shouldn't be allowed to begin any hormone therapy or surgery until at least 16.

Yeah, I agree that's completely wrong. Since the legal age in America is 18, I think you should have to be 18.

How is he pretending to be racist?

He uses racism against his political opponents. Like when he said a judge shouldn't be trusted because he's a Mexican judge. Or that the Squad should "go back" to their countries.
His defenders are fast to use the "he has a black friend" defense here. And yeah, I don't think he's racist. But he is willing to use racism when he has to.

Hermann Göring was the same way. He wasn't anti-semitic, but he persecuted Jews because it helped him become very rich and powerful in Nazi Germany.

 

[saltydancin]

Actually, the god of the Bible acts in a way that is totally beyond the logic of humans. For all we know, he sends believers to Hell and lets Atheists into Heaven. Maybe he is real and I'll be looking down on you.

So that's why the logic of Christians crusades & Islam jihads to send non believers to Hell after whatever cognitive dissonance interpretation of God they believe will get them into heaven to look down with condescending arrogance at other humans !

 

[saltydancin]

I think the bot is broken.

Yet another Christian with a send to Hell jihad diatribe as Rehnquist's Christian Nation SCOTUS immaculate drug conception tautology send to Hell crusade based on a fabricated misnomer.

 

[saltydancin]

Indeed. There are also people who assume that Christ wasn't a real person but an amalgamation of other culturally relevant figures. There are many parallels between Christ and Mithras, for example. I'm not really sure what to assume regarding this.

An amalgamation of a fabricated misnomer and an immaculate conception for the purpose of "man is God" & to kill is about all the cultural relevance in human farming it represents.

 

[saltydancin]

// Again, fascism is about as overused of a word as racism is these days. It's like Hitler comparisons. People called Bush Hitler, and now they're doing it with Trump. It doesn't apply in either case.

Bush had lynching enforcement so a retired WW II Pentagon staff sergeant to Ike could be baptized by urinations for being a fabricated misnomer Islam with a SCOTUS immaculate drug conception to confirm it; which seems dialectic since it occurred before 9/11 with that obvious national religion of a supreme swastika up Uranus court patriot act health care plan.

 

[Saudade]

But how do you know [insert person here] is going through with the policies they promised if they lie constantly?
I think it's a good thing that most Americans vote for the person and the policies, I just think it's bad that honest isn't an important trait anymore.

Honesty has never been an important trait for anyone who pays attention to politicians' actions. The only difference with Trump is that the media fixates on any deceit from him. If the media held Obama to the same standard, he wouldn't have a very favorable image by now. "Honest politician" is an oxymoron, except in very rare cases.

One of the ways that Russa interfered was through troll accounts spreading Fake News. Which means that most people influenced probably had no idea that the Russian government was involved.
As for the notion that it didn't make a difference, maybe you're right. Maybe the only people who fell for the Fake News articles were a few Boomers who were already going to vote for Trump anyway. But even then, we have the fact that Trump colluded with a foreign government to win an election. Whether they were successful or not is besides the point. Trump got away with it, so now colluding with foreign governments takes a step towards being normal.

The only difference I see between "colluding" with a foreign government on troll accounts and accepting loads of lobbyist money from foreign governments is that the latter is considered normal practice. The latter is also more significant in terms of affecting policy. Again, let me know when Russia spends more on lobbyism than China, Israel, and Saudi Arabia.

Keep in mind, we're also just learning more about gender dysphoria now because it's been a taboo subject for so long. There are going to be people that doctors fail to help.
Overall, most studies show that people are generally happier after getting the surgery, but there are cases of people regretting it. Which sounds about normal, even if this wasn't a fairly new accepted study.

Yeah, I agree that's completely wrong. Since the legal age in America is 18, I think you should have to be 18.

Well, I'm glad we agree on the child aspect of this.

He uses racism against his political opponents. Like when he said a judge shouldn't be trusted because he's a Mexican judge. Or that the Squad should "go back" to their countries.
His defenders are fast to use the "he has a black friend" defense here. And yeah, I don't think he's racist. But he is willing to use racism when he has to.

Hermann Göring was the same way. He wasn't anti-semitic, but he persecuted Jews because it helped him become very rich and powerful in Nazi Germany.

I think that's a pretty extreme analogy, but I wouldn't consider telling someone to go back to their country to be racist. You could call it xenophobic, but frankly, some wariness toward foreigners is warranted. We don't tend to get many worthwhile people from Somalia, for example. It really is a "shithole" country. It's why we need to be more selective regarding immigration.

 

[StoneByStone]

Honesty has never been an important trait for anyone who pays attention to politicians' actions. The only difference with Trump is that the media fixates on any deceit from him. If the media held Obama to the same standard, he wouldn't have a very favorable image by now. "Honest politician" is an oxymoron, except in very rare cases.

Depends which media you mean. Fox criticized Obama all the time.

But really, if you ignore the media, and just focus on the politicians themselves, there is no question. Obama lied like an ordinary politician, Trump lies like he has a mental disorder that forces him to lie. Yeah, certain media is harder on Trump, just like certain media was harder on Obama. But anyone can see that Trump lies way more and he lies about things that have already been proven.

The only difference I see between "colluding" with a foreign government on troll accounts and accepting loads of lobbyist money from foreign governments is that the latter is considered normal practice. The latter is also more significant in terms of affecting policy. Again, let me know when Russia spends more on lobbyism than China, Israel, and Saudi Arabia.

See, that's what I'm talking about. It's bad that lobbying became normalized. Now, thanks to Trump, colluding with countries to spread Fake News is becoming normalized too. Because of this Ukrainian scandal, it's also becoming normalized to bribe foreign governments to slander political opponents.
If you value democratic elections, you should be against anything that further devalues our election process.

I think that's a pretty extreme analogy, but I wouldn't consider telling someone to go back to their country to be racist. You could call it xenophobic, but frankly, some wariness toward foreigners is warranted. We don't tend to get many worthwhile people from Somalia, for example. It really is a "shithole" country. It's why we need to be more selective regarding immigration.

The reason it's racist is because three of these four women were born in America. And the fourth one is an American citizen. Trump was invoking the old trope that non-white people don't have a right to be here. Same thing with the "Mexican judge." This wasn't xenophobic because this guy was born in America. It was racist.
Maybe it's extreme to compare him to a Nazi, but considering Trump is also trying to rig elections, this isn't the only thing that makes him like a Nazi.

 

[Saudade]

Depends which media you mean. Fox criticized Obama all the time.

But really, if you ignore the media, and just focus on the politicians themselves, there is no question. Obama lied like an ordinary politician, Trump lies like he has a mental disorder that forces him to lie. Yeah, certain media is harder on Trump, just like certain media was harder on Obama. But anyone can see that Trump lies way more and he lies about things that have already been proven.



See, that's what I'm talking about. It's bad that lobbying became normalized. Now, thanks to Trump, colluding with countries to spread Fake News is becoming normalized too. Because of this Ukrainian scandal, it's also becoming normalized to bribe foreign governments to slander political opponents.
If you value democratic elections, you should be against anything that further devalues our election process.

Well, I'll put it this way. What we've normalized with foreign governments goes well beyond any supposed bribery. We've overthrown governments through coups that we've supported. I think that's a bit more serious than anything Trump has done. It may not involve our elections, but I find that sort of thing far more concerning.

I guess what I'm getting at is that nothing Trump has done with foreign governments really fazes me compared to what other presidents have done so far. My expectations aren't particularly high for a given administration because of various historical events.

You could say that Trump is normalizing certain things, but I'm pretty cynical toward government in general. The things that concern me most about government have less to do with any specific president and more to do with long term trends and policies. The FISA "hop" policy is probably one of the most concerning things to me. https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/256333/fisas-license-to-hop

The reason it's racist is because three of these four women were born in America. And the fourth one is an American citizen. Trump was invoking the old trope that non-white people don't have a right to be here. Same thing with the "Mexican judge." This wasn't xenophobic because this guy was born in America. It was racist.
Maybe it's extreme to compare him to a Nazi, but considering Trump is also trying to rig elections, this isn't the only thing that makes him like a Nazi.

Ok, to use it against people that were born here, I can see what you mean, but for someone not born here, I honestly can't say I'm always against that. Maybe that's racist, but c'est la vie.

To say he's trying to rig elections is definitely stretching things though.

 

[Nordberg]

Pascal's Wager is an interesting concept, although it still doesn't answer the question of what god to believe in. In the hypothetical you pose, there are actually 3 other possibilities.

1) You could both be wrong. You may have picked the wrong god to believe in and face damnation along with the atheist.

2) You could both be wrong, and you both are reincarnated without any memory of this life.

3) You could both be wrong, but the correct god doesn't condemn people to damnation. You both end up in an afterlife together.

The other point is can you simply say you will begin to believe in god? An all-knowing God is way ahead of you. So that makes the whole Pascal thing crumble.

 

[saltydancin]

Well, I'll put it this way. // Ok, to use it against people that were born here, I can see what you mean, but for someone not born here, I honestly can't say I'm always against that. Maybe that's racist, but c'est la vie.
To say he's trying to rig elections is definitely stretching things though.

Probably no different from those burning Bush's patriot act as commander in chief with his brother's lynching enforcement baptize thine eyes of a 70 some year old Washington, D.C. born retired US Army Veteran for the fabricated misnomer of being Islam in order for that Catholic Church megalomaniacal second coming thru 9/11....

 

[Nordberg]

The irony is that evangelicals and churches back Trump who is the first atheist president in a long time. They don't care if they get the tax breaks .

 

[StoneByStone]

Well, I'll put it this way. What we've normalized with foreign governments goes well beyond any supposed bribery. We've overthrown governments through coups that we've supported. I think that's a bit more serious than anything Trump has done. It may not involve our elections, but I find that sort of thing far more concerning.

Overthrowing governments is interfering in the politics of other countries. I'm totes against that, but Trump is trying to normalize countries interfering in our elections, which is something different. And yeah, that's always happened to a degree. We are living in a globalized world, after all. But we've never had a president get caught colluding with one country and then trying to bribe another in order to get elected and then reelected. Now that Trump has been caught, we as a nation must decide whether or not we're ok with this. If Trump is reelected, he gets away with is, thus sending the message to all future presidents that you can attempt to rig an election with foreign governments and it will not hurt your career.
This is what Trumpcucks don't really understand. They're only ok with this because it's Trump doing it. But if future President AOC does this, she's going to get away with it because Trump normalized it.

I guess what I'm getting at is that nothing Trump has done with foreign governments really fazes me compared to what other presidents have done so far. My expectations aren't particularly high for a given administration because of various historical events.

But shouldn't we stop presidents from normalizing new things that hurt the country?

You could say that Trump is normalizing certain things, but I'm pretty cynical toward government in general. The things that concern me most about government have less to do with any specific president and more to do with long term trends and policies.

But how does something become a long-term trend or policy? It happens when a president or other influential politician does something new and we as the voters decide whether or not it's ok. It goes back to the Overton Window.
I think Clinton should have been removed for lying under oath. But he wasn't, so now if a president lies under oath, we're all going to shrug and say "meh, Clinton did it, this is just what presidents do."

Ok, to use it against people that were born here, I can see what you mean, but for someone not born here, I honestly can't say I'm always against that. Maybe that's racist, but c'est la vie.

To say he's trying to rig elections is definitely stretching things though.

Well there is also the fact that the Squad doesn't actually criticize America like Trump claims they do. But the point is that Trump, like Göring, is a non-racist who uses racism to advance a Fascist agenda.

We can split hairs on if it's technically rigging an election, but either way, trying to use the power of a political office to kneecap a political opponent is definitely Fascism 101. At least right before the Fascist gains full power, then it's off to the gulags.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

You assume too much. There are atheist Trump supporters, like myself. But yes, the Bible was edited down to certain books by many writers, so each chapter gives its own cultural spin on things.

Well, I'd assume that all Trump supporters were atheists, but very cynical ones - but, then, there are some very odd religions. What trumpers certainly are not is any kind of Christian whatever. They worship money and power.

 

[Saudade]

Well, I'd assume that all Trump supporters were atheists, but very cynical ones - but, then, there are some very odd religions. What trumpers certainly are not is any kind of Christian whatever. They worship money and power.

That's a pretty broad assumption again. That would be like me saying that all Democrats are powerhungry wingnuts. A lot of them are, but not all of them.

 

[Saudade]

Overthrowing governments is interfering in the politics of other countries. I'm totes against that, but Trump is trying to normalize countries interfering in our elections, which is something different. And yeah, that's always happened to a degree. We are living in a globalized world, after all. But we've never had a president get caught colluding with one country and then trying to bribe another in order to get elected and then reelected. Now that Trump has been caught, we as a nation must decide whether or not we're ok with this. If Trump is reelected, he gets away with is, thus sending the message to all future presidents that you can attempt to rig an election with foreign governments and it will not hurt your career.
This is what Trumpcucks don't really understand. They're only ok with this because it's Trump doing it. But if future President AOC does this, she's going to get away with it because Trump normalized it.

Once again, the Mueller report did not prove what you're assuming. If it had, then the Democrats wouldn't have had to jump into the Ukraine goose chase to arrive at their impeachment nonsense. They could have simply held an impeachment vote after the release of the Mueller report.

But shouldn't we stop presidents from normalizing new things that hurt the country?

Sure. We should stop the normalization of pointless investigations. Admittedly, it started with what the Republicans did to Clinton.

But how does something become a long-term trend or policy? It happens when a president or other influential politician does something new and we as the voters decide whether or not it's ok. It goes back to the Overton Window.
I think Clinton should have been removed for lying under oath. But he wasn't, so now if a president lies under oath, we're all going to shrug and say "meh, Clinton did it, this is just what presidents do."

I don't think he should have been removed. Yes, he technically committed perjury, but his overall performance as president wasn't bad. Also, I certainly did not want Gore running things. He wasn't a moderate like Clinton.

Well there is also the fact that the Squad doesn't actually criticize America like Trump claims they do. But the point is that Trump, like Göring, is a non-racist who uses racism to advance a Fascist agenda.

We can split hairs on if it's technically rigging an election, but either way, trying to use the power of a political office to kneecap a political opponent is definitely Fascism 101. At least right before the Fascist gains full power, then it's off to the gulags.

More hyperbole. If Trump gets re-elected, we'll see if the gulags actually happen. I'm pretty confident we're not anywhere near that.