Not quite sure you know what an Electrical Engineer is.
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- Thread starter AProudLefty
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Not quite sure you know what an Electrical Engineer is.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
That's more church material. You are avoiding the Fischer-Trosch process because you know what it will do to your faith. Science has that effect. I feel for you. Those with the strongest religious faiths are those whose faiths permit the pursuit of science. To that end, I would recommend you have a conversation with Into the Night and gfm7175 and find out how they do it. I can't help you in that area because I'm an atheist, so I don't ever face that challenge.
When the day comes that you are ready to break free from the bonds of your political and religious servitude to Global Warming, Climate Change and their Marxist administrators, I'll be happy to explain to you how the push to get away from hydrocarbons, earth's best renewable energy resource, is damaging to world economies and is really just a stupid idea being pushed by people who basically hate humanity.
There is no such thing ... outside of your faith, that is. If I were to show you hydrocarbons produced in a lab from no organic material, your religion would nonetheless force you to "see" biomarkers that naturally are not there.
Ditching a religion isn't easy, is it? Especially when people you trusted implicitly were actually indoctrinating you into that faith over many years by telling you that the religion is NOT a religion, but is actually "settled science."
I never let anyone do my thinking for me. I never let anyone bend me over furniture and ream disinformation into me.
It comes down to a difference in scale. Physics is the study of fundamental particles at the quantum scale, biology is the study of cells, populations, and ecological systems, and chemistry falls somewhere in between as the study of molecules and atoms, their bonds and reactions.
There is naturally always a bit of overlap.
But I've sat through introductory inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, and a bit of organic chemistry, and other than the Bohr model of the atom (which technically isn't even correct from a quantum perspective), there is only passing discussion, if that, of wave particle duality, the dual split experiment, quantum chromodynamics, quantum wave collapse, quantum entanglement.
Quantum mechanics just isn't dealt with in any kind of depth in the those types of chemistry classes.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Shall we explore why you are not sure? Yes, we shall.
Possibilities:
1. You don't know what an electrical engineer is, so you can't be sure whether anyone else does either.
2. You can't read T.A. Gardner's posts and thus you aren't sure what was actually written.
3. Stephen Colbert hasn't bent you over furniture and told you what to believe.
4. Since you don't know what a fact is, you presume that you must first approve what others are claiming for them to claim it.
Are there others I have missed?
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
OK. I thought you were serious. You aren't. You are a moron. You know about as much geology as Cypress does.
Good job.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Too funny. Don't you two realize that it would be much easier just to come to me for the correct answer? It would require less effort and would spare you some embarrassment.
Geology is the study (ology) of the earth (geo), with the understanding that "earth" doesn't really include the hydrosphere or atmosphere ... but that isn't a hard/fast rule. Geology overlaps with chemistry and physics.
AProudLefty
Black Kitty Ain't Happy
IBDaMann
Well-known member
It's tough to ditch a religion. I feel for you.
Just be aware that when such topics arise, you are going to get raked over the coals, and your religious indoctrination will not help you. You aren't fooling anyone with your death-struggle to avoid allowing the Fischer-Tropsch process to destroy your faith. I really feel for you.
When you are ready to climb on over to the science side of the fence, I will be happy to help you all you wish. I won't be bending you over furniture and telling you what to believe.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
So go ahead and show the class how you can get a porphyrin ring from Fischer-Tropsch in a geologic setting. I'll wait.
You, of course, won't be able to. Because all you know is the name Fischer-Tropsch but you have no clue what the reactions are or how they are carried out. For instance F-T requires a catalyst. Care to tell us where that occurs in nature such that it functions as a true F-T reaction?
And, again, at the end of the day for your "hypothesis" to be accurate it has to form porphyrin rings for example.
I'm willing to watch you provide the class with an actual synthesis route. Not just another youtube pointer. Just tell us the synthesis route and make sure it is one that can exist in a geologic setting.
Oh yeah, then show us examples where it is KNOWN to have happened.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Wrong.
Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.
Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)
See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.
In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.
Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.
Remember this little rubric?
What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.
How about these?
And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.
AProudLefty
Black Kitty Ain't Happy
Wrong.
Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.
Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)
See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.
In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.
Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.
Remember this little rubric?
What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.
How about these?
And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.
Yeah I learned that in high school chemistry class. We were introduced to Quantum Physics.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Yes it is very key to chemistry. And obviously those of us that took chemistry classes had to learn it. Like I said to Cypress earlier it's not like we were solving the Schroedinger equations to arrive at the orbital shapes but we were working with QM intensively in the classes.
And at the end of the day quantum is the core of chemistry.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
OK class, now Perry was very brave to raise his hand and ask a question. Very well done Perry; you get a gold star for today.
Class, porphyrin rings are organic constructs that do not come into play in the formation of hydrocarbons. Perry, remember that; you have been told this before.
The Fischer-Tropsch reaction is like any other chemical reaction, i.e. if the conditions exist for the reaction to happen then the chemical reaction will happen. The Fischer-Tropsch process requires carbon, hydrogen and a metal catalyst, all of which all plentiful in the earth's crust.
I'm going to throw this back at you.
1. Explain how you believe organic matter somehow arrived beneath impermeable rock and then somehow decayed into a higher form of energy in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
2. Explain how the Fischer-Tropsch process actually does not form hydrocarbons
-2a. Exlain how the earth's crust is actually devoid of carbon, hydrogen, metal catalysts or of any of the conditions necessary for the Fischer-Tropsch reaction to occur.
-2b. How is the abundance of these conditions at the edges of tectonic plates? Explain.
3. Explain how it is KNOWN that your biological-matter-to-hydrocarbons process ever actually happened, without claiming biological markers that don't exist and without claiming omniscience that you do not have.
I think it's about time you did some value-added explaining. I'm listening. The floor is yours.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
1. What were you taught about quantum physics?
2. What percentage of what you were taught did you learn?
3. What percentage of what you learned do you remember?
4. How much of what you believe you remember is actually correct?
Remember, all this time you've been thinking that geology is chemistry and I had to correct you. Too funny.
Do you think someone can learn chemistry without learning any quantum anything?
AProudLefty
Black Kitty Ain't Happy
1. Atomic orbitals and the Bohr model for examples.
2. What kind of question is that?
3. What kind of question is that?
4. What kind of question is that?
I never claimed that geology is chemistry. Your imagination is too funny.
Sure someone can learn chemistry without quantum physics. It's a dumb question. Do better.
Wrong.
Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.
Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)
See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.
In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.
Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.
Remember this little rubric?
What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.
How about these?
And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.
Looks like I sent you off to do a 20 minute internet research project. You don't have much of a life on weekends, eh?
You didn't say that chemistry used quantum concepts. Though I can understand why you would want to backtrack and modify your original assertion.
You said that quantum mechanics was the very heart of the science of chemistry.
Other than presenting students with the (technically incorrect) Bohr model of the atom, introductory college chemistry classes deal with quantum mechanics in a very superficial way, and they certainly don't do anymore than lip service at best to most basic quantum concepts, which are covered with much more rigour and depth in physics classes.
My challenge to you again is to contact ten universities, and tell them you want a graduate degree in quantum mechanics, and then observe if they refer you to the physics department or the biogeochem department
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
IBDaMann
Well-known member
I forgot, you can't read.
I forgot, you can't read.
I forgot, you can't read.
I forgot. You have no memory.
Then how can quantum physics be the core of chemistry if one can learn chemistry without learning quantum physics?
AProudLefty
Black Kitty Ain't Happy
Yes, child.