Leaving Iraq, Honorably

OrnotBitwise said:
Not just an assumption. Remember the 9/11 Commission Report? Even that limp-wristed document indicates that the only substanciated al Qaeda presence in Iraq prior to March 2003 was in the Kurdish region in the north, far beyond Saddam Hussein's sphere of influence. And that was just one, solitary training base.
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well ya it is .. just like i said.. an assumtion based on what evidence we have...

its not like the 9-11 commision report is an oracle or somthing
 
bob said:
well ya it is .. just like i said.. an assumtion based on what evidence we have...

its not like the 9-11 commision report is an oracle or somthing
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There is a distinct difference between an assumption and a conclusion based on evidence. It is incorrect to use the word "assumption" in this context.
 
I guess Damo, but I still cant get over the fact that we went in, in the first place...

I knew it would be a mess like it has turned out to be. I also knew it was not justified. Its hard to stop saying, "I told you so" when over 2500 of our best are dead!

Now we need to get out, and I am so glad America finally woke up and decided to stop trusting the group who fucked up so badly to clean the mess up!
 
Apparently the 911 commission report was just a scrap of paper , judging from how much attention the bush administration paid to it.
 
Damocles said:
Duplicate...

Here was my answer:

So, you are presenting basically the exact same plan as I did, then saying, "You are wrong!" so that you can claim victory because I belong to a different party?

maineman, why don't you just stick to suggesting my self-gratification... You sound more logical.

The thing is, if you had actually read my plan with somewhat of an open mind you would see that it is a plan to leave, not to stay, and with the most amount of dignity for ourselves and the Iraqis with the least amount of tools for the terrorists to use for recruitment. Instead you pretend that I have presented nothing that would say that it would be a greater tool if we just leave in the "dead of the night" as you said we shouldn't.

Like I said you can read my posts without prejudice and see that we are in agreement, or you can continue to suggest that I am somehow suggesting something different and then go into how much I should self-gratify.... Either way, I am not the one using illogic to present a "case" for the exact same thing that you present.
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you are the one who posted two quotes by AQ suggesting our departure would be a victory for AQ and extrapolated from those quotes that such a departure would mean an increase in recruitment. I have said that I thought that our departure would be viewed in an extremely positive light by the arab world and , regardless of the spin AQ might try to put on our departure, that the net effect of our leaving would be positive and would result in a net decrease in AQ/anti-American terrorist recruiting. I have never suggested that we leave in the dead of night, but by a date certain that is measured into the future in months, not years.
 
Jarod said:
I guess Damo, but I still cant get over the fact that we went in, in the first place...

I knew it would be a mess like it has turned out to be. I also knew it was not justified. Its hard to stop saying, "I told you so" when over 2500 of our best are dead!

Now we need to get out, and I am so glad America finally woke up and decided to stop trusting the group who fucked up so badly to clean the mess up!
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Like I said, I was against it as well. Every undeclared war we have ever been in has been a mess. This one hasn't changed my opinion on them at all. That doesn't change my answer to the question, 'What do we do now?' even a little though.

It's like gaining a new position at work, you still have to deal with the previous manager's mess before you can make your own...
 
10 years from now Iraq will be one of the biggest uglyest blots ever in American history. 100 years from now our ancestors will still be feeling the negative effects of what happened in this nation over the past 5 years.
 
maineman said:
you are the one who posted two quotes by AQ suggesting our departure would be a victory for AQ and extrapolated from those quotes that such a departure would mean an increase in recruitment. I have said that I thought that our departure would be viewed in an extremely positive light by the arab world and , regardless of the spin AQ might try to put on our departure, that the net effect of our leaving would be positive and would result in a net decrease in AQ/anti-American terrorist recruiting. I have never suggested that we leave in the dead of night, but by a date certain that is measured into the future in months, not years.
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Once again, you can pretend to find disagreement in the fact that we both agree we should leave without leaving "under cover of darkness" or you can assume that because I think that leaving smartly is better than leaving "under the cover of darkness" and handing them a recruitment tool is "foolish" all because I am of a different political party.... It's your choice. Each time you repeat this nonsensical, "You have pretty darned close to the same plan, but you are "wrong" because you are of the same party as Bush" it becomes more apparent you cannot see past ideology to even get an inkling of my actual position.
 
Damocles said:
Like I said, I was against it as well. Every undeclared war we have ever been in has been a mess. This one hasn't changed my opinion on them at all. That doesn't change my answer to the question, 'What do we do now?' even a little though.

It's like gaining a new position at work, you still have to deal with the previous manager's mess before you can make your own...
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Except that at work usually the old manager has been held accountable and his style, ideas, and plans have been reputiated. The old manager has usually been kicked out or up and is no longer allowed to make decisions. It is rare that someone with such poor judgement as to get into such a mess is given leave to use the same jugment skills to try to clean it up....
 
Jarod said:
Except that at work usually the old manager has been held accountable and his style, ideas, and plans have been reputiated. The old manager has usually been kicked out or up and is no longer allowed to make decisions. It is rare that someone with such poor judgement as to get into such a mess is given leave to use the same jugment skills to try to clean it up himself....
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Bullpucky, usually they have been promoted.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
There is a distinct difference between an assumption and a conclusion based on evidence. It is incorrect to use the word "assumption" in this context.
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well thats a pretty thin line.... we cant conclude that we have all the evidence but only assume... yes we can conclude that from what we do know forsure. But it would be an assumtion if we just accept it as is.

example:
in other words OJ is innocent no matter what evidince comes forward after the fact
 
uscitizen said:
And the Iraq war has gone on longer now than WW2 for the USA......
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No, it hasn't. This would be okay had we counted the long occupation and rebuilding in that, but we didn't. Had it taken this long to defeat Saddam's original army I'd agree that this was apples to apples. However it didn't, this is comparing Hammers to Apples and finding they taste the same....
 
I think we can all admit there is something VERY wrong with a system that sent Bush back to the presidency in 04'.
 
I know that is what the opinion pieces are saying, I have pointed out inconsistencies on that particular POV. The two are not comparable, not with our entry as the right attempts to play, nor in our exit as the left is attempting. How long did we stay in West Germany helping them rebuild? Don't pretend it hasn't been far longer than we have been in Iraq...

Clearly the two don't compare well.
 
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