Leaving Iraq, Honorably

uscitizen said:
Yep and people that voted him back in at that time too.
We can't just sluff this off to the system failing....
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So any ideas on how to fix that....


The manipulation that goes on in presidental campaigns is shamefull, Americans are so easily mainpulated...

What can we do about it?
 
bob said:
well thats a pretty thin line.... we cant conclude that we have all the evidence but only assume... yes we can conclude that from what we do know forsure. But it would be an assumtion if we just accept it as is.

example:
in other words OJ is innocent no matter what evidince comes forward after the fact
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Are you, by chance, a Creationist? This is exactly the sort of deliberate misuse of terms in which they indulge when trying to obscure the distinctions between their mythological stories and scientific theory.

The two words mean quite different things. To use one when you mean the other is obfuscatory. Pray attend, grasshopper:

Main Entry: as·sump·tion
Pronunciation: &-'s&m(p)-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere

4 : [SIZE=-1]ARROGANCE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]PRETENSION[/SIZE]
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
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vs.
Main Entry: con·clu·sion
Pronunciation: k&n-'klü-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin conclusion-, conclusio, from concludere
1 a : a reasoned judgment : [SIZE=-1]INFERENCE[/SIZE] b : the necessary consequence of two or more propositions taken as premises; especially : the inferred proposition of a syllogism
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The one is made in the absense of evidence, the other is derived from evidence. A conclusion can be incorrect but it is not the same thing as an assumption.

Now, I will grant you this much. It is common in vernacular useage to dis the conclusions of one's opponent by calling them "assumptions." I do this myself from time to time. It is, however, just a form of insult.
 
Damocles said:
I know that is what the opinion pieces are saying, I have pointed out inconsistencies on that particular POV. The two are not comparable, not with our entry as the right attempts to play, nor in our exit as the left is attempting. How long did we stay in West Germany helping them rebuild? Don't pretend it hasn't been far longer than we have been in Iraq...




Clearly the two don't compare well.
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No offense , but I will take their word for it.
 
Jarod said:
So any ideas on how to fix that....


The manipulation that goes on in presidental campaigns is shamefull, Americans are so easily mainpulated...

What can we do about it?
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get more people too vote... 40% is shamefull

i think that first and formost.. but also wont think it will happen until the is room for more then just 2 major POV's... this big party thing just isnt working
 
bob said:
get more people too vote... 40% is shamefull

i think that first and formost.. but also wont think it will happen until the is room for more then just 2 major POV's... this big party thing just isnt working
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40% is bad, but what about 04' what was the turnout? I seem to remember that it was high?

I agree we should find some way to encourage the development of more parties and a more parlementarian system on the congressional side. Most Americans are not truely represented at the national level. Maybe we should have 200 senators and 1000 congressmen?
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Are you, by chance, a Creationist? This is exactly the sort of deliberate misuse of terms in which they indulge when trying to obscure the distinctions between their mythological stories and scientific theory.

The two words mean quite different things. To use one when you mean the other is obfuscatory. Pray attend, grasshopper:


vs.

The one is made in the absense of evidence, the other is derived from evidence. A conclusion can be incorrect but it is not the same thing as an assumption.

Now, I will grant you this much. It is common in vernacular useage to dis the conclusions of one's opponent by calling them "assumptions." I do this myself from time to time. It is, however, just a form of insult.
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i say assumtion simply because i feel there is no way too know for sure if they were there or not... atleast in the amount of time that we came to the conclusion.

an assumtion because of a lack of evidence for either position...
 
uscitizen said:
No offense , but I will take their word for it.
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Of course. It is always easier to hear an opinion that agrees with whatever you want rather than to think it through. It's okay... I won't be insulted by that.

I notice you still didn't answer my question. How long did we stay in West Germany, for that matter Japan too, to help them rebuild? That would supposedly be the same stage we are in now in Iraq. They don't compare well because the total defeat of all Germany helped to make it so we didn't have insurgency and more problems during the rebuild...

Anyway, it really doesn't compare well on either side. The Rs kept bringing it up as if Saddam was like Hitler, that didn't compare well, the Ds now keep bringing up that our occupation has now outlasted the war if you don't count the occupation time...

Neither one compares well.
 
Jarod said:
So any ideas on how to fix that....


The manipulation that goes on in presidental campaigns is shamefull, Americans are so easily mainpulated...

What can we do about it?
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Limit campaign spending or airtime ?
It is difficult to do with the people by and large being so sheepleish to the vidiot box.
 
The nomination system needs work as does the two party system. I think we should have four or five viable presidental canidates in the early part of any campaign.

I would go as far as to say we should amend the Constitution to allow for two "presidents" one for domestic issues and one for forign affairs. Maybe a directly elected Secretary of State with specific powers all to him/her self.
 
Damocles said:
Of course. It is always easier to hear an opinion that agrees with whatever you want rather than to think it through. It's okay... I won't be insulted by that.

I notice you still didn't answer my question. How long did we stay in West Germany, for that matter Japan too, to help them rebuild? That would supposedly be the same stage we are in now in Iraq. They don't compare well because the total defeat of all Germany helped to make it so we didn't have insurgency and more problems during the rebuild...

Anyway, it really doesn't compare well on either side. The Rs kept bringing it up as if Saddam was like Hitler, that didn't compare well, the Ds now keep bringing up that our occupation has now outlasted the war if you don't count the occupation time...

Neither one compares well.
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Au contraier. I have thought it out and it is good enough for me.
Remember now I have NEVER voted for Bush :)
So I am not the kettle to you mr. pot ;)
 
uscitizen said:
Limit campaign spending or airtime ?
It is difficult to do with the people by and large being so sheepleish to the vidiot box.
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Limit negative ads that are not comparitive. Make it so slander laws apply in campaign ads too... exempting them has made it a free-for-all...
 
Jarod said:
40% is bad, but what about 04' what was the turnout? I seem to remember that it was high?

I agree we should find some way to encourage the development of more parties and a more parlementarian system on the congressional side. Most Americans are not truely represented at the national level. Maybe we should have 200 senators and 1000 congressmen?
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04 we had around 60% ... i would like too see it atleast 80% if not 90%

and frankly i dont know the answer... not nesicarly more statesment but more verity would be nice...
 
uscitizen said:
Limit campaign spending or airtime ?
It is difficult to do with the people by and large being so sheepleish to the vidiot box.
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I think you would have to amend the first amendment to get very far with that... Plus there are way to many ways to manipulate the rules.
 
I would also like to see every candidate have to submit a resume for the job as well. If any lies are on it they go to jail.
 
Damocles said:
Limit negative ads that are not comparitive. Make it so slander laws apply in campaign ads too... excempting them has made it a free-for-all...
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That would be a start.... hold those who pay for the ads accountable for the truthfullness of them.
 
uscitizen said:
Au contraier. I have thought it out and it is good enough for me.
Remember now I have NEVER voted for Bush :)
So I am not the kettle to you mr. pot ;)
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Remember, I was not "for" the war... Notice how I make it clear that it doesn't compare to either side of this war? No, you just like to make it seem like I haven't thought it all the way through.

If we were still in battle with Saddam's forces I would agree, this "war" lasted longer than WWII, however we are not. Had we defeated Hitler's forces without defeating the will of the German people, as we did in Iraq, we might have exactly the same long occupation battle, but we didn't. The two just don't compare well at all. This "war" and then occupation is nothing at all like WWII.
 
I think that Bush effectivly used people who belived in his social agenda to force some support for his forign agenda, while the two did not really have a lot to do with eachother.

That is why I like the directly elected "Secretary of State" with some of the presidental powers taken from the president and given to the SOS.
 
uscitizen said:
I would also like to see every candidate have to submit a resume for the job as well. If any lies are on it they go to jail.
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well one idea i am not so sure about but anyway...

anyone who runs for office basicly will wave their rights to privicy. they should be held to a much higher standerd then your avg citizin
 
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