I didn't say leaving would cause it, I said leaving stupid would give them a better recruiting tool than leaving smart would.
Leaving Iraq, Honorably
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
maineman
Banned
and I agree...but I think leaving sooner will make the arab street less inclined to be sucked into AQ spin than leaving later will.....
I really believe that not only do the american people want us out of Iraq... but the vast majority of the arab world does as well.
And I do not understand why we cannot state TODAY that we realize that our mission is accomplished - we have deposed Saddam and the Iraqi people have brought him to justice - we have disarmed Iraq and they no longer have any WMD's that would threaten us - and we realize that our further presence in Iraq is preventing Iraqis from solving Iraq's problems for themselves. I truly believe we would gain a great deal of "street cred" in the arab world for such a move. This isn't our fight anymore...it is the Iraqi's and the sooner we let them fight it unencumbered by an occupying and enraging foreign and christian army, the more our stock will rise (or perhaps, at this point, the less our stock will drop) in the arab world.
I really believe that not only do the american people want us out of Iraq... but the vast majority of the arab world does as well.
And I do not understand why we cannot state TODAY that we realize that our mission is accomplished - we have deposed Saddam and the Iraqi people have brought him to justice - we have disarmed Iraq and they no longer have any WMD's that would threaten us - and we realize that our further presence in Iraq is preventing Iraqis from solving Iraq's problems for themselves. I truly believe we would gain a great deal of "street cred" in the arab world for such a move. This isn't our fight anymore...it is the Iraqi's and the sooner we let them fight it unencumbered by an occupying and enraging foreign and christian army, the more our stock will rise (or perhaps, at this point, the less our stock will drop) in the arab world.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
This isn't our fight anymore...it is the Iraqi's and the sooner we let them fight it unencumbered by an occupying and enraging foreign and christian army, the more our stock will rise (or perhaps, at this point, the less our stock will drop) in the arab world.
The fight for democracy over anti-democracy, is most certainly still ours. Hopefully, it always will be. The Iraqi people can't fight the foreign-backed insurgents without help, nor should they have to, when we are their allies. The Iraqi people are not 'encumbered' by having American assistance in battling foreign-backed insurgents, and have not asked us to leave. Our military is not confined to Christians, and your continued attribution of the sort, is patently ridiculous, and makes you appear to be a sycophant for the radical Muslims.
And at what point in time was our stock in the Arab world, ever on the rise? Regardless of Iraq, the Arabs hate us. We could have nuked Saddam and the Arabs would have hated us just as much as if we had tickled his ass with a feather, and to pretend that something we did in Iraq, was somehow responsible for the animosity Arabs feel for us, is again, patently ridiculous.
Your rant is as full of bloviating pompous arrogant wrong-headedness, as it's ever been. Apparently, you think because your party won Congress, your incompetent viewpoints just became legitimate and valid, and you've decided to throw common sense and intellectual honesty out the door. It reminds me of an insurance agent who's been turned down, and doesn't want to lose the sell, so he just keeps annoyingly pounding and pestering. I hope this tone is continued for the next two years, because the American people are not idiots, they will boot your incompetent asses out of power in short order, if your leadership is as profoundly stupid as you are.
The fight for democracy over anti-democracy, is most certainly still ours. Hopefully, it always will be. The Iraqi people can't fight the foreign-backed insurgents without help, nor should they have to, when we are their allies. The Iraqi people are not 'encumbered' by having American assistance in battling foreign-backed insurgents, and have not asked us to leave. Our military is not confined to Christians, and your continued attribution of the sort, is patently ridiculous, and makes you appear to be a sycophant for the radical Muslims.
And at what point in time was our stock in the Arab world, ever on the rise? Regardless of Iraq, the Arabs hate us. We could have nuked Saddam and the Arabs would have hated us just as much as if we had tickled his ass with a feather, and to pretend that something we did in Iraq, was somehow responsible for the animosity Arabs feel for us, is again, patently ridiculous.
Your rant is as full of bloviating pompous arrogant wrong-headedness, as it's ever been. Apparently, you think because your party won Congress, your incompetent viewpoints just became legitimate and valid, and you've decided to throw common sense and intellectual honesty out the door. It reminds me of an insurance agent who's been turned down, and doesn't want to lose the sell, so he just keeps annoyingly pounding and pestering. I hope this tone is continued for the next two years, because the American people are not idiots, they will boot your incompetent asses out of power in short order, if your leadership is as profoundly stupid as you are.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
The fight for democracy over anti-democracy
Anti-democracy.... That's funny....
The Iraqi people can't fight the foreign-backed insurgents without help
Still living in cloud-cuckooland Dixie. The Iraqis are fighting themselves.
As predicted.
Anti-democracy.... That's funny....
The Iraqi people can't fight the foreign-backed insurgents without help
Still living in cloud-cuckooland Dixie. The Iraqis are fighting themselves.
As predicted.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
And at what point in time was our stock in the Arab world, ever on the rise?
The Americans were largely popular until they reinstalled the Shah and gave such unconditional support to Israeli terrorism...
We could have nuked Saddam and the Arabs would have hated us just as much as if we had tickled his ass with a feather, and to pretend that something we did in Iraq, was somehow responsible for the animosity Arabs feel for us, is again, patently ridiculous.
Mmmmn, at a time when extremists are gaining support and radicalising people by pointing to the 'aggressiveness' of the 'crusaders', attacking a Muslim country using BS justifications is handing the extremists a victory.
and you've decided to throw common sense and intellectual honesty out the door.
This, from the most sophist sophist on the board...
The Americans were largely popular until they reinstalled the Shah and gave such unconditional support to Israeli terrorism...
We could have nuked Saddam and the Arabs would have hated us just as much as if we had tickled his ass with a feather, and to pretend that something we did in Iraq, was somehow responsible for the animosity Arabs feel for us, is again, patently ridiculous.
Mmmmn, at a time when extremists are gaining support and radicalising people by pointing to the 'aggressiveness' of the 'crusaders', attacking a Muslim country using BS justifications is handing the extremists a victory.
and you've decided to throw common sense and intellectual honesty out the door.
This, from the most sophist sophist on the board...
maineman
Banned
you continue to attempt to spin what is happening in Iraq into something it isn't. You continue to attempt to suggest that there are all of these freedom loving Iraqis - shiites, sunnis, kurds - who have all had this giant group hug, sung three verses of kumbaya and are standing as one against these "foreign backed insurgents". That isn't what is going on. It is a civil war between sunnis and shiite Iraqis. More and more people are finally admitting that it is a civil war... and fewer and fewer of the neocon holdouts are standing with Bush and spewing this increasingly ridiculous line.
I happen to know from personal experience that many many arabs had neutral and even favorable opinions of America. Many arabs were sympathetic to America in the wake of 9/11, but you and Bush and your stupid stupid war in Iraq pretty much pissed all that good will away. Thanks shitloads.
And PLEASE continue to make your uniformly wrong assertions as to what the American people will or will not do. Your diagnosis of the political situation in America is as accurate as Dr. Frist's video diagnosis of Terri Schiavo. All one has to do is review your prognositications as to the American electorate's reactions to anything and bet on anything headed in the opposite direction. Remember? You were certain enough to bet $100 that my party was so marginalized in American politics that we would not even pick up one seat in each chamber of congress.
Do you even know what a fucking joke you have become?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
You continue to attempt to suggest that there are all of these freedom loving Iraqis - shiites, sunnis, kurds - who have all had this giant group hug, sung three verses of kumbaya and are standing as one against these "foreign backed insurgents".
I don't know about group hugs or kumbaya, but these Iraqi's seem to be 'standing as one' with their purple fingers.
These Iraqis seem to be pretty happy that Saddam is gone, and they don't seem to be protesting our presence in Iraq as much as you are. (Notice the flag is not being burned or held upside down here.)
No... I think it is YOU who is trying to spin things. We've already discussed the aspects of outside influence on the insurgency. It is impossible for an insurgent movement to survive without foreign assistance, they simply have no means of replenishing their arsenal.
You can keep trying to turn Iraq into Vietnam, and you can keep trashing and bashing Bush about going into Iraq, your arguments are no more valid and legitimate than they were before the elections, and that certainly wasn't why people elected the Democrats to power.
I don't know about group hugs or kumbaya, but these Iraqi's seem to be 'standing as one' with their purple fingers.
These Iraqis seem to be pretty happy that Saddam is gone, and they don't seem to be protesting our presence in Iraq as much as you are. (Notice the flag is not being burned or held upside down here.)
No... I think it is YOU who is trying to spin things. We've already discussed the aspects of outside influence on the insurgency. It is impossible for an insurgent movement to survive without foreign assistance, they simply have no means of replenishing their arsenal.
You can keep trying to turn Iraq into Vietnam, and you can keep trashing and bashing Bush about going into Iraq, your arguments are no more valid and legitimate than they were before the elections, and that certainly wasn't why people elected the Democrats to power.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
It is impossible for an insurgent movement to survive without foreign assistance, they simply have no means of replenishing their arsenal.
Yet that doesn't mean that the insurgency is being led externally. The US didn't 'lead' the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan, they merely provided gear....
If anyone were to actually listen to you Dixie, you'd think Iraq was going swimmingly, aside from a few nasty foreigners who are doing the killing....
Yet that doesn't mean that the insurgency is being led externally. The US didn't 'lead' the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan, they merely provided gear....
If anyone were to actually listen to you Dixie, you'd think Iraq was going swimmingly, aside from a few nasty foreigners who are doing the killing....
"You can keep trying to turn Iraq into Vietnam, and you can keep trashing and bashing Bush about going into Iraq, your arguments are no more valid and legitimate than they were before the elections, and that certainly wasn't why people elected the Democrats to power."
Much of the reason why the GOP lost their "majorities as far as the eye can see," and why Dems won, and why there has likely been a major political realignment for a generation, is that the admin & its koolaid guzzling followers (namely, you) have refused to deal with the reality of the situation in Iraq..."bring 'em on"..."last throes"..."Iraq is NOT in a civil war". Americans aren't stupid; they know when the spin doesn't match the reality. As someone correctly pointed out on another thread, our strategy & tactics are doomed to fail if we don't at the VERY LEAST have a starting point that is firmly rooted in the reality on the ground.
You & Bush will continue your marginalization of the GOP unless you get with the program & accept what the situation in Iraq currently is, instead of looking backward through rose-colored glasses at what you probably consider Iraq's "glory days" - Saddam's statue toppling, purple fingers, etc. The chaos that has been unleashed by your careless actions is really what we have to deal with, now.
Love the "Pinhead quote", btw - I stand by it. And it IS much more well-reasoned than your usual namecalling rants when you get all testy & irritated....
Much of the reason why the GOP lost their "majorities as far as the eye can see," and why Dems won, and why there has likely been a major political realignment for a generation, is that the admin & its koolaid guzzling followers (namely, you) have refused to deal with the reality of the situation in Iraq..."bring 'em on"..."last throes"..."Iraq is NOT in a civil war". Americans aren't stupid; they know when the spin doesn't match the reality. As someone correctly pointed out on another thread, our strategy & tactics are doomed to fail if we don't at the VERY LEAST have a starting point that is firmly rooted in the reality on the ground.
You & Bush will continue your marginalization of the GOP unless you get with the program & accept what the situation in Iraq currently is, instead of looking backward through rose-colored glasses at what you probably consider Iraq's "glory days" - Saddam's statue toppling, purple fingers, etc. The chaos that has been unleashed by your careless actions is really what we have to deal with, now.
Love the "Pinhead quote", btw - I stand by it. And it IS much more well-reasoned than your usual namecalling rants when you get all testy & irritated....
maineman
Banned
that picture tells the entire story? that picture somehow proves that it is nasty foreign backed insurgents battling this brave groups of sunnis, shiites, and kurds? that picture proves that sunnis and shiites in Iraq are not fighting one another?
Who CARES if either or both sides are receiving help from sunni and shiite brothers outside of Iraq? what does that matter? Did not the confederacy receive help from England? did that mean that our civil war was not, therefore, a civil war? the combatants in this war are Iraqis...and Iraqis are fighting Iraqis... and it is a civil war and not an anti-democratic insurgency fighting a united bunch of multicultural multisectarian democracy loving Iraqis. You and Bush are the only ones still saying that.... and the world is either ignoring you, marginalizing you or laughing at you.....
Who CARES if either or both sides are receiving help from sunni and shiite brothers outside of Iraq? what does that matter? Did not the confederacy receive help from England? did that mean that our civil war was not, therefore, a civil war? the combatants in this war are Iraqis...and Iraqis are fighting Iraqis... and it is a civil war and not an anti-democratic insurgency fighting a united bunch of multicultural multisectarian democracy loving Iraqis. You and Bush are the only ones still saying that.... and the world is either ignoring you, marginalizing you or laughing at you.....
uscitizen
Villified User
It is impossible for an insurgent movement to survive without foreign assistance, they simply have no means of replenishing their arsenal.
//
HUH ? we are training and equipping these insurgents every day. They are known as the Iraqi police force or some such name while in training.
//
HUH ? we are training and equipping these insurgents every day. They are known as the Iraqi police force or some such name while in training.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
The Americans were largely popular until they reinstalled the Shah and gave such unconditional support to Israeli terrorism...
Excuse me, but this is not so. Modern Anti-Zionism started as far back as 1900. To pretend that the US action regarding the Shah had anything to do with anti-western and anti-Zionist sentiment, is patently ridiculous, it existed long before that. And if you read the Fatwas and calls to Jihad from the radicals, they don't even mention the Shah! You are simply making an assumption, based on your own ignorant views, and failure to understand history.
Mmmmn, at a time when extremists are gaining support and radicalising people by pointing to the 'aggressiveness' of the 'crusaders', attacking a Muslim country using BS justifications is handing the extremists a victory.
I've got news for you, if they are still talking about "the crusaders" over there, this goes WAYYYY back before the Shah. I think you just refuted your very own argument here, which might just be a 'pinhead first!'
I have two problems with your viewpoint, first, it seems to be predicated on this notion that we can take actions to make them hate the Infidel and Jew less, and secondly, it seems to indicate you think they will perceive backing down, as something other than weakness. You tend to want to apply western or European logic to what the radical Islamofascists are demonstrating, and you fail to understand these people can't be negotiated with, their goal and objective is to see us all dead, and the world ruled by a Caliphate. Oh yeah, and all that talk about establishing a Caliphate, predates, and has nothing whatsoever to do, with the Shah or the US backing him.
Excuse me, but this is not so. Modern Anti-Zionism started as far back as 1900. To pretend that the US action regarding the Shah had anything to do with anti-western and anti-Zionist sentiment, is patently ridiculous, it existed long before that. And if you read the Fatwas and calls to Jihad from the radicals, they don't even mention the Shah! You are simply making an assumption, based on your own ignorant views, and failure to understand history.
Mmmmn, at a time when extremists are gaining support and radicalising people by pointing to the 'aggressiveness' of the 'crusaders', attacking a Muslim country using BS justifications is handing the extremists a victory.
I've got news for you, if they are still talking about "the crusaders" over there, this goes WAYYYY back before the Shah. I think you just refuted your very own argument here, which might just be a 'pinhead first!'
I have two problems with your viewpoint, first, it seems to be predicated on this notion that we can take actions to make them hate the Infidel and Jew less, and secondly, it seems to indicate you think they will perceive backing down, as something other than weakness. You tend to want to apply western or European logic to what the radical Islamofascists are demonstrating, and you fail to understand these people can't be negotiated with, their goal and objective is to see us all dead, and the world ruled by a Caliphate. Oh yeah, and all that talk about establishing a Caliphate, predates, and has nothing whatsoever to do, with the Shah or the US backing him.
uscitizen
Villified User
"You can keep trying to turn Iraq into Vietnam, and you can keep trashing and bashing Bush about going into Iraq, your arguments are no more valid and legitimate than they were before the elections, and that certainly wasn't why people elected the Democrats to power."
//
but our arguments are not any less valid either. they were valid before the election and they are still valid.
//
but our arguments are not any less valid either. they were valid before the election and they are still valid.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
could you please indicate to me which of those in the picture are shiites, which are sunnis and which are kurds?
According to the voting numbers, the majority are Shiites, then Kurds, and then Sunnis. They are certainly all reperesented in the Unity Government elected by 12 million Iraqi citizens. Can you show me which Iraqi's are fighting each other in the pictures?
According to the voting numbers, the majority are Shiites, then Kurds, and then Sunnis. They are certainly all reperesented in the Unity Government elected by 12 million Iraqi citizens. Can you show me which Iraqi's are fighting each other in the pictures?
Oh...I didn't realize! Does that picture represent "the current situation in Iraq" to you? Is that the planet that you reside upon?
Would you like some new pictures, Dix? If you would like, I can find a few that might open your eyes a bit on this subject. Of course, you would actually have to LOOK at them, first...
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
that picture tells the entire story? that picture somehow proves that it is nasty foreign backed insurgents battling this brave groups of sunnis, shiites, and kurds? that picture proves that sunnis and shiites in Iraq are not fighting one another?
I said nothing about "nasty" foreign backed insurgents, or "brave groups" of sunnis, shiites and kurds. Those are your words, and I suppose you chose them for a reason. Perhaps it was to evoke an emotional picture of how you want to twist my words? The Unity Government, certainly represents a "brave group of sunnis, shiites, and kurds" because that is what it's comprised of. The insurgency is certainly being funded and aided by outside influences, regardless of whether they have had a recent bath.
I said nothing about "nasty" foreign backed insurgents, or "brave groups" of sunnis, shiites and kurds. Those are your words, and I suppose you chose them for a reason. Perhaps it was to evoke an emotional picture of how you want to twist my words? The Unity Government, certainly represents a "brave group of sunnis, shiites, and kurds" because that is what it's comprised of. The insurgency is certainly being funded and aided by outside influences, regardless of whether they have had a recent bath.
Your second picture appears to be taken from Kurdistan, which is almost 100% kurdish. Note the kid holding the PDK sign. PDK is a separatist kurdish independence group. I suspect everyone in that photo is kurdish.