Let's Go, Get Woke, America!

There used to be a sort of whitewashing of history in schools. It was like: "Oh, we're perfect and America is so amazing and we've never done any wrong, and the whole world looks up to us, and Columbus discovered America, and the native Americans were savages, blah blah blah."

That's wrong. It's not right. We shouldn't be doing that. I hope we are no longer doing that.

We have a checkered past. There is much to be proud of, but there is also a lot to reckon with.

We need to be teaching our future adults exactly what this nation is all about. They could start off with a very sanitized version for the very young, but by they time they get to be 10-12 years old the approach needs to shift toward far more detail about how we have actually carved a very beautiful nation out of a pretty ugly past, and the work is not done.

Our schools need to be teaching kids to be woke.
 
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PoliTalker said:
There used to be a sort of whitewashing of history in schools. It was like: "Oh, we're perfect and America is so amazing and we've never done any wrong, and the whole world looks up to us, and Columbus discovered America, and the native Americans were savages, blah blah blah."

That's wrong. It's not right. We shouldn't be doing that. I hope we are no longer doing that.

We have a checkered past. There is much to be proud of, but there is also a lot to reckon with.

We need to be teaching our future adults exactly what this nation is all about. They could start off with a very sanitized version for the very young, but by they time they get to be 10-12 years old the approach needs to shift toward far more detail about how we have actually carved a very beautiful nation out of a pretty ugly past, and the work is not done.

Our schools need to be teaching kids to be woke.
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Will that include teaching about redlining and the racist history of single family zoning laws? Should we teach our kids to go home and question why they live in neighborhoods created based on racism? That would be woke to me.
 
Hello cawacko,

cawacko said:
Will that include teaching about redlining and the racist history of single family zoning laws? Should we teach our kids to go home and question why they live in neighborhoods created based on racism? That would be woke to me.
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Those sound like excellent discussions to have.

Although you know I would like it if the discussion on zoning examined multiple views on the subject.

People who buy into single-family zoning do so because it is their preference. And when they do so, they expect the zoning to remain the way it was when they bought in. It would negatively impact home value in a 'hood to see pre-existing single family zoning suddenly turned into multi-family. Who wants to own a home with a certain value and then see the place next door suddenly get converted into duplex/triplex with rentals?

New builds could include less single family zoning, but I would expect that if that were government-mandated by percentage it would cause the preexisting single-family zoned areas to become even more valued.

And there is nothing about single-family zoning which makes it white only. Anyone of any race who has the money can buy and live there.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello cawacko,



Those sound like excellent discussions to have.

Although you know I would like it if the discussion on zoning examined multiple views on the subject.

People who buy into single-family zoning do so because it is their preference. And when they do so, they expect the zoning to remain the way it was when they bought in. It would negatively impact home value in a 'hood to see pre-existing single family zoning suddenly turned into multi-family. Who wants to own a home with a certain value and then see the place next door suddenly get converted into duplex/triplex with rentals?

New builds could include less single family zoning, but I would expect that if that were government-mandated by percentage it would cause the preexisting single-family zoned areas to become even more valued.

And there is nothing about single-family zoning which makes it white only. Anyone of any race who has the money can buy and live there.
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One of your arguments has been we should teach racism. Single family zoning was created as a racist measure. Go look up its history. This is where the disconnect is. You're stating we should be woke and should teach racist history but here you are defending that racism (single family zoning). This is a perfect example of why things don't change.

It's easy (for anyone) to post "be woke" on a message board or social media. That takes minimal effort. Getting into the weeds and doing real work (like changing the racist past of our housing laws) isn't as easy or sexy.
 
Hello cawacko,

cawacko said:
One of your arguments has been we should teach racism.
Click to expand...

What a ridiculous thing to say! What I write, and what you read, are two entirely different things. I never said we should teach racism (and why you can't quote me saying so.) We should teach our racial history. We should teach it so that we can reduce and hope to eliminate racism! We should not teach racism. There is too much teaching of racism in the homes of racists. Nobody is born as a racist. They have to be taught that, and it happens in the home. All we have to counter that is what we teach in schools. That is why it is so important to teach racial history in school, to counter the hateful things racist parents are teaching their children.

cawacko said:
Single family zoning was created as a racist measure. Go look up its history. This is where the disconnect is. You're stating we should be woke and should teach racist history but here you are defending that racism (single family zoning). This is a perfect example of why things don't change.
Click to expand...

Things do change. Change is all around us. President Obama campaigned on Hope and Change, and wow, do we ever have change. It's not the change we hoped for, but we certainly have change. Racism is worse! Racists couldn't stand it that we had a black president. They fought back by forming the Tea Party, which was code for anti-Obama, anti-Black President. We were not being taxed too much at all. Taxes were hardly ever lower than they were under Obama. That's the way racists work these days. We have made direct racism wrong and illegal, as those racists in Georgia found out, as Derek Chauvin found out. So now we have all this coded racism. What BS. Woke people can see right through that.

As far as racism goes, the changes so far have been bad. Having a black president brought out the racists. They became emboldened. Maybe the way we end racism is going on right now. They have their last hurrah, and that brings about the creativity needed to end it once and for all. If we manage to end racism, we will be the first country/society to do so. But we simply cannot cave and allow the prevention of teaching racial history in school. All of those new laws have to be overturned. Hopefully they go to the SCOTUS and get tossed!

cawacko said:
It's easy (for anyone) to post "be woke" on a message board or social media. That takes minimal effort. Getting into the weeds and doing real work (like changing the racist past of our housing laws) isn't as easy or sexy.
Click to expand...

No, it certainly isn't. Now look. I am willing to have this conversation you want to have about zoning. But I am not going to do your homework for you. You can say 'go look it up' all you want. I am not going to do that. If you want to present why you think single family zoning was created as a racist measure, you are going to have to show that. Find something to back that up and put a link. I will look at it and discuss it. Simply making the claim and then telling me to go find out why isn't gonna get it.

I can see how SFZ works to keep the wealthy separate from the less wealthy. If that divides white and black along those lines it is not because of race. It is because of wealth. Wealthy blacks live in single family zoned areas. So it's not exactly clear how that is racist. Show it and we can discuss it. SFZ was done to protect wealth by protecting property value. Nobody in a SFZ area wants to see neighbor homes converted into multi-family rentals. That affects their property value. That is the main consideration. Property value is the #1 way that most Americans build wealth. We have to be very careful to avoid messing with that.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello cawacko,



What a ridiculous thing to say! What I write, and what you read, are two entirely different things. I never said we should teach racism (and why you can't quote me saying so.) We should teach our racial history. We should teach it so that we can reduce and hope to eliminate racism! We should not teach racism. There is too much teaching of racism in the homes of racists. Nobody is born as a racist. They have to be taught that, and it happens in the home. All we have to counter that is what we teach in schools. That is why it is so important to teach racial history in school, to counter the hateful things racist parents are teaching their children.



Things do change. Change is all around us. President Obama campaigned on Hope and Change, and wow, do we ever have change. It's not the change we hoped for, but we certainly have change. Racism is worse! Racists couldn't stand it that we had a black president. They fought back by forming the Tea Party, which was code for anti-Obama, anti-Black President. We were not being taxed too much at all. Taxes were hardly ever lower than they were under Obama. That's the way racists work these days. We have made direct racism wrong and illegal, as those racists in Georgia found out, as Derek Chauvin found out. So now we have all this coded racism. What BS. Woke people can see right through that.

As far as racism goes, the changes so far have been bad. Having a black president brought out the racists. They became emboldened. Maybe the way we end racism is going on right now. They have their last hurrah, and that brings about the creativity needed to end it once and for all. If we manage to end racism, we will be the first country/society to do so. But we simply cannot cave and allow the prevention of teaching racial history in school. All of those new laws have to be overturned. Hopefully they go to the SCOTUS and get tossed!



No, it certainly isn't. Now look. I am willing to have this conversation you want to have about zoning. But I am not going to do your homework for you. You can say 'go look it up' all you want. I am not going to do that. If you want to present why you think single family zoning was created as a racist measure, you are going to have to show that. Find something to back that up and put a link. I will look at it and discuss it. Simply making the claim and then telling me to go find out why isn't gonna get it.

I can see how SFZ works to keep the wealthy separate from the less wealthy. If that divides white and black along those lines it is not because of race. It is because of wealth. Wealthy blacks live in single family zoned areas. So it's not exactly clear how that is racist. Show it and we can discuss it. SFZ was done to protect wealth by protecting property value. Nobody in a SFZ area wants to see neighbor homes converted into multi-family rentals. That affects their property value. That is the main consideration. Property value is the #1 way that most Americans build wealth. We have to be very careful to avoid messing with that.
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No idea what bringing up Obama has to do with the history of redlining, zoning etc.

From our local NPR station. This is the history of racism. You're telling everyone to be woke then you should be well aware of this.


The Racist History of Single-Family Home Zoning

https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning
 
Hello cawacko,

cawacko said:
No idea what bringing up Obama has to do with the history of redlining, zoning etc.
Click to expand...

News flash. This thread isn't about zoning. It is about getting woke, about getting people to be more aware of our racist history.

cawacko said:
From our local NPR station. This is the history of racism. You're telling everyone to be woke then you should be well aware of this.


The Racist History of Single-Family Home Zoning

https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning
Click to expand...

I'll look at it, but since it is SanFran I would expect it to be more of a local thing. Am I wrong?
 
Yup. I was right. The article is about the bay area. It projects local conclusions on the entire country.

Single Family zoning was begun by a racist, so that makes all SFZ racist.

BS! It protects property values by not allowing cheap rentals.

And these days, most cheap rentals are really just big corporations preventing people from owning homes by snapping them all up, and only offering them for rent.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello cawacko,



News flash. This thread isn't about zoning. It is about getting woke, about getting people to be more aware of our racist history.



I'll look at it, but since it is SanFran I would expect it to be more of a local thing. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

The racist story of housing is a huge part of our history and is a major component in calls for reparations. So it is highly relevant when discussing wokeness. And the racist history of single family zoning is a national, not a local thing.

Go read The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein if you want a progressive perspective of the racist history of housing and how the government segregated us (and hurt minorities economically). That is woke sh*t and it entails far more than simply partisan politics and wanting your party to win elections.
 
Woke means being aware of how racism works.

Apparently, there is a belief that there is too much single family zoning, and that it contributes to segregation. I do not believe the answer is to take an existing neighborhood and kill property values by allowing multiple units to replace older homes. The answer is to force new development and new home building areas to be smaller more affordable homes, multi-family and to prevent rentals.

Rentals are the real problem. Forcing the poor to pay rent instead of allowing them to buy is the problem.
 
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