Let's Run Government On Credit; And Not Collect Enough Taxes - It'll Be Great!

Let's Run Government On Credit; And Not Collect Enough Taxes - It'll Be Great!
What could possibly go wrong?
Debt is just a word, right?

Have you written your congressperson and demanded that they start working WITH Trump to do something about deficit spending? If not, why not?

When Obama and Democrats were spending deficits on steroids, did you demand they stop and balance a budget? If not, why not?
 
More lies from the left, if your lips are moving you are lying. The tax cuts have not added one cent to the debt, revenue is still up. It's the spending stupid. You know, the spending that originates in the House of Representatives? Who controls the House of Representatives?

:thumbsup: You're going to confuse leftists like this with such facts. ;)
 
I absolutely care about the debt. I understand why it is important. I may be socially liberal, but I am fiscally conservative. (Just like Bloomberg...)

REALLY? So have you written your congressperson to demand they work with Trump to pare down spending? If not, why not?

I don't recall you or anyone on the left railing about the massive record breaking deficits during Obamunism? Why is that?

We should be taxing the rich more to eliminate the deficit.

We don't have a revenue problem. We could tax the rich at 100% and still have deficits. We have a SPENDING problem. You lefties are very dense.

:eyeroll:
 
Borrow and spend is the ReTrumplican motto.

BULLSHIT. The only Congress in the last five decades that balanced the budget were with a Republican Congress during Clinton's Philandering Presidency.

Have you written your congressperson and demanded that they start working WITH Trump to do something about deficit spending? If not, why not?

When Obama and Democrats were spending deficits on steroids, did you demand they stop and balance a budget? If not, why not?
 
Had there been no tax cut the budget/revenue would be higher, no? Money that could go towards paying of debt?

After the tax cut, revenue still increased. Anyone who thinks we have a revenue problem with a 4.3 trillion budget is daft and stupid.

I don't recall any leftists demanding that Obama work WITH the Republican majority to reign in spending. When did this occur???

Obama says he's prepared to act without Congress in State of the Union address
 
That'd be great. But remember to be satisfied with the incremental change that would come with having at least Bernie in the WH.

Bernie's policies would destroy the economy and Government revenue if elected. Fortunately, the only way Bernie will ever see the inside of the White House is as a guest. ;)
 
I don't know what part of history you're talking about - but it's common sense that if you have a revenue cut and you reverse that cut the budget would return to the previous size given no other mitigating factors.

There has been no revenue cut dimwit. Revenues increased every year after the tax cuts.
 
Yeah, I'm not so sure of that. I see him as a one term president if he gets elected.

Good. 4 years of not having a corrupt Democrat offering piece meal in office.

He won't be able to get any of his grand plans passed, Congress will fight him on all of it, so he won't get anything passed.

Are you implying Pelosi would be an adversary? What is the point of BLu no Matter who if you don't want him to be President? If you aren't willing to do as you begged me to "compromise"?
 
That's not a matter of economics. You have to look at the details of those cuts and where the money is now coming from.

But also if you do want to look at history the Bush tax cuts of 2001 directly refute your point. In 2000 Fed tax revenue was $2.03 trillion, then in 2001 it was $1.99, 2002 $1.85, 2003 $1.78 https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762#current-revenue

I know enough of what I'm talking about to provide sources, I suggest you do the same. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

No, you don't know shit about what you are bloviating about.

Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Signed into law by President George W. Bush on 7 June 2001

Revenue in 2001 = $1,991.1
Revenue in 2002 = $1,853.1

Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Signed into law by President George W. Bush on May 28, 2003

Revenue in 2003 = $1,782.3
Revenue in 2004 = $1,880.1
Revenue in 2005 = $2,153.6
Revenue in 2006 = $2,406.9
Revenue in 2007 = $2,568.0

After those two acts were signed into law, Revenue increased by 29% or $576.9 BILLION.

Simple economics for leftist morons: when people keep more of what they earn, they have more to invest and spend. More spending equals more business. More business equals more workers. More workers equals more tax income.
 
After those two acts were signed into law, Revenue increased by 29% or $576.9 BILLION.

Simple economics for leftist morons: when people keep more of what they earn, they have more to invest and spend. More spending equals more business. More business equals more workers. More workers equals more tax income.

Yea cool we're talking about rate of growth not simple growth, k thx. You're quote spamming me so this is the only response you're gonna get.
 
What could possibly go wrong?

Debt is just a word, right?

We're old white men. We don't care. We'll be dead when the bill comes due.

Besides. We've got you fooled that this economy can last forever like this!

Enjoy it while you can. We sure are....................

You got your wish. We have been accumulating a debt for 200+ years.
 
Hello Woko Haram,

Pass the act first then. Until then, the issue is that cronyists can spend the money in other economies throughout the world.

It is in the interest of everyone except the corrupt to pass the Anti-Corruption Act. But it will take some time. That depends on how many people agree strongly enough to join the effort, since this is something we the people must do for ourselves without waiting for government to make it happen. This should appeal to all free-thinking persons who have a healthy suspicion of government.

If that's your argument, then it sounds like you favor socialism. Bernie must be your favorite candidate. To each their own, but we are fundamentally at odds on economics.

I favor a hybrid economy which combines capitalism and socialism in the correct balance, because that is the logical conclusion of real-life testing of different economic models all over the world and across time.

The more government grows, the fewer liberties you keep. That is half of the problem with big government.

That is inevitable. There is no way to prevent government from growing in proportion to population growth and technological advancement. The government of 1776 needed no FAA, no FCC, for instance. Look to the distant future: We currently have 7.5 billion humans on the planet. How many personal liberties would you expect the people of a planet of a trillion humans to retain? Long ago, when the planet had only a few humans, personal liberties were ultimate. No restrictions whatsoever. Fast forward to today and personal liberties are severely restricted compared to original humans. That trend is bound to continue over time. You can't just pick a block of time and freeze the situation to your liking. To try to argue against change itself is futile.

The other half involves the economic issues I've mentioned.

And all of the issues must be accepted and managed, because there is no preventing progress.

There are numerous countries throughout the world that have a government more along the lines of what you're discussing, but their personal freedoms are considerably more restricted. If you want that, then maybe you should immigrate to one of them. The UK might be a good fit, or Canada.

That is a ridiculous non-argument which will solve nothing. One individual changes countries. What's that going to do? If that is your best argument then you're capitulating on the weal merit of your overall argument. I can understand. I believe your argument is bound to prove faulty. It is not possible to implement a strategy of cutting back government in a growing world.

I prefer the relatively smaller government here and the much more decentralized authority.

We don't have a small government and we never will. But if you're happy with what we've got, then you should have nothing to complain about.

Well, you seem to have no concern of freeloading. If you want to talk about economic downturns, a society that discourages ambition and does not encourage work is surely on the path to failure and collapse.

No, I am really not concerned with freeloading. And I will tell you why. Because I have faith in human potential for good. That's why. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith. My faith is in humanity to do good, that good will triumph over bad. It always has and it always will, in the long run. Sure, there are bad people and they do bad things. But there are more good people, and the good outweighs the bad over time. This is an easy faith for me to have because I look at everything we have and I can see it was all built by humanity working together toward the common good.

The difference between the view that people left to their own devices will do bad things and the belief that they will naturally tend to do good things is the difference between pessimism and optimism. Humans, when presented with a good situation, will mostly do good things, seek happiness and the rewards of accomplishment. This is due to natural selection. If humans tended to do bad things, mess up a good situation, then humanity would have been mostly comprised of thieves, and no advancement of civilization would have been possible because: for every thing built by one person, there would be two to steal it or destroy it. So nothing would get built, no advancement would remain. There would be no point. Hopelessness and despair would dominate, and humanity would have died out as a result. That didn't happen, because people are basically and inherently good and productive.

We live in a fantastic world of advancement and accomplishment. Look at all we've accomplished since being cavemen. Humans are productive and good. A UBI is not going to change that. If we provided every member of society the means to survive in basic comfort, most will seek pursuits to improve their own condition above that bare minimum, whether that be by work or business or mutual trading of volunteering efforts. The work does not have to be rewarded with pay to yield a sense of accomplishment. Have you never lifted a finger to do anything you were not paid to do? I certainly have. And I believe most people have. People like to help one another simply for the act of giving and doing something nice for others. People will undertake effort and work for their own reward and as a display of their love for others and for humanity. That is a natural human instinct and it is why humanity has advanced, not regressed.

That's where UBI comes in. Anyone who is capable of fulfilling government work should also be capable of finding private work. If he/she can't then he/she must not have been that economically worthwhile to begin with.

The problem with capitalism is that it eats itself. OK? I'll explain: Capitalism always seeks to improve profits for the holders of capital. ROI. It's all about the ROI. Toward that end, labor is continually targeted for cuts. Any means may be employed to reduce labor. Offshoring, automation, systems engineering, efficiency improvement, etc. As time goes by, fewer and fewer workers are employed. That is great for profits but it does not address the other side of the capitalism equation. Sure, it's great to reduce the cost of providing products and services, but somebody has to buy those products and services. The same workers that capitalism is cutting the income of, are the potential buyers of products and services.

As capitalism makes profiteering more efficient, it destroys it's own market. That's why capitalism always eats itself. Henry Ford understood this problem. If there is nobody who can afford to buy your products then there is no point in building them, and you won't make any money.

Socialism and wealth redistribution can help with that. Actually, it is necessary. Capitalism is destined to fizzle out without socialism to support it. Once most of the wealth has been transferred into a very small segment of society, and most of society essentially has no wealth, no buying power, and is rendered unable to buy anything. Then the capitalist market collapses. Wealth redistribution ensures that there will always be a market for capitalism. Equitable wealth redistribution ensures that the common masses always have buying power, and the opportunity to achieve great wealth and grand dream fulfillment. It is that hope of upward mobility which motivates ambitious people to strive and achieve great things which benefit society.
 
Hello Woko Haram,

And what exactly would that regulation do? If you stifle construction, that drives up housing costs if people continue to move into the area. The failed approach that many big cities have tried to respond to this rise in cost is via rent control. That just ends up creating a market where cronies pass properties between each other. The other failed approach is subsidized housing, which just creates ghettos.

Proper regulation does not limit the population. It requires that construction be done in a way which does not exacerbate flooding.

If you accept that the GDP sometimes dips no matter what, then you should understand that a temporary dip isn't an issue as long as the market is free enough to recover.

When GDP dips, that is called recession. We don't want that. Sure, recessions happen, but we should strive to have policy which does not cause them. Recessions hurt. Recessions should be avoided.

It's completely unrealistic to set policies under the assumption that GDP growth can be maintained indefinitely -- particularly via government spending. That is exactly the kind of recklessness that China has been engaging in.

Don't look now, but China is a great emerging economy. Yes, there are some lessons there.

A much more reasonable approach is to cut government spending, weather the temporary dips, and ensure that the market is able to pick up the slack by staying out of the way of business in general.

That is only reasonable to people who are obsessed with ignoring progress and wish to revert back to some mythical time in history when they thought things were better, which is absolutely unrealistic.
 
Hello Casual Leftist,

Are you implying Pelosi would be an adversary? What is the point of BLu no Matter who if you don't want him to be President? If you aren't willing to do as you begged me to "compromise"?

I will totally vote for Bernie over DT if it comes to that. Vote Blue No Matter Who is no idle wish. It is a commitment to rid our government of DT. While I prefer Bernie I do not believe he has the best chance of displacing DT.

We must not lose sight of the most important goal of Democrats. We have to defeat DT. That is the most important goal for America.
 
Hello Woko Haram,


It is in the interest of everyone except the corrupt to pass the Anti-Corruption Act. But it will take some time. That depends on how many people agree strongly enough to join the effort, since this is something we the people must do for ourselves without waiting for government to make it happen. This should appeal to all free-thinking persons who have a healthy suspicion of government.



I favor a hybrid economy which combines capitalism and socialism in the correct balance, because that is the logical conclusion of real-life testing of different economic models all over the world and across time..


We already have a mixed market economy. It's just not as far in the socialist direction as certain other nations.


That is inevitable. There is no way to prevent government from growing in proportion to population growth and technological advancement. The government of 1776 needed no FAA, no FCC, for instance. Look to the distant future: We currently have 7.5 billion humans on the planet. How many personal liberties would you expect the people of a planet of a trillion humans to retain? Long ago, when the planet had only a few humans, personal liberties were ultimate. No restrictions whatsoever. Fast forward to today and personal liberties are severely restricted compared to original humans. That trend is bound to continue over time. You can't just pick a block of time and freeze the situation to your liking. To try to argue against change itself is futile..


When considering that the world had fewer people during the Middle Ages than it had in 1776 but America developed more liberties than any medieval society, your argument doesn't hold much weight historically. It also doesn't even work within the context of American history alone. There are more liberties now than there were when we started. Slavery is no longer legal, segregation is illegal, and all adult citizens (who aren't felons) can vote. What we have seen in the last few decades, however, is a trend toward using "national security" as an excuse to restrict freedoms. That has no correlation to population size, and it's only halfway related to technology. The only relevance technology has in this is that government has more tools to spy on us with than before. That doesn't mean we should allow it to do so.


And all of the issues must be accepted and managed, because there is no preventing progress.


What you call progress, I call statism.


That is a ridiculous non-argument which will solve nothing. One individual changes countries. What's that going to do? If that is your best argument then you're capitulating on the weal merit of your overall argument. I can understand. I believe your argument is bound to prove faulty. It is not possible to implement a strategy of cutting back government in a growing world.


It's not a non-argument. My point is that you're trying to change America into just another Western nation with too much statism. America is one of the last bastions of limited government in the West. With the way things are going, we might see certain non-Western countries rise to the top of quality of life eventually. The West has long been known for its personal freedoms, but so much of it has seem determined to throw all of that away for the sake of collectivism.

Meanwhile, many non-Western countries seem to slowly recognize the value in personal freedoms and are starting to tear down overbearing government. There are also people struggling to fight back against an oppressive central government, like in Hong Kong. The Hong Kongers know firsthand what happens when you're forced to sacrifice freedoms for some grand scheme by government, and they're tired of dealing with its excesses.


We don't have a small government and we never will. But if you're happy with what we've got, then you should have nothing to complain about.


I'm complaining about the direction we're trending in. Granted, if we want to talk about people who should have nothing to complain about, tell the SJWs of the left that minority rights are better here than just about anywhere else.


No, I am really not concerned with freeloading. And I will tell you why. Because I have faith in human potential for good. That's why. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith. My faith is in humanity to do good, that good will triumph over bad. It always has and it always will, in the long run. Sure, there are bad people and they do bad things. But there are more good people, and the good outweighs the bad over time. This is an easy faith for me to have because I look at everything we have and I can see it was all built by humanity working together toward the common good.


I have faith in humanity too. I have faith that people make ends meet without government intervention, and that they adapt as needed.


The difference between the view that people left to their own devices will do bad things and the belief that they will naturally tend to do good things is the difference between pessimism and optimism. Humans, when presented with a good situation, will mostly do good things, seek happiness and the rewards of accomplishment. This is due to natural selection. If humans tended to do bad things, mess up a good situation, then humanity would have been mostly comprised of thieves, and no advancement of civilization would have been possible because: for every thing built by one person, there would be two to steal it or destroy it. So nothing would get built, no advancement would remain. There would be no point. Hopelessness and despair would dominate, and humanity would have died out as a result. That didn't happen, because people are basically and inherently good and productive.


I view it as pessimism to assume that humanity needs government to be dependent on. Ambition and hard work are what help people grow, not propping them up with money stolen by the state.


We live in a fantastic world of advancement and accomplishment. Look at all we've accomplished since being cavemen. Humans are productive and good. A UBI is not going to change that. If we provided every member of society the means to survive in basic comfort, most will seek pursuits to improve their own condition above that bare minimum, whether that be by work or business or mutual trading of volunteering efforts. The work does not have to be rewarded with pay to yield a sense of accomplishment. Have you never lifted a finger to do anything you were not paid to do? I certainly have. And I believe most people have. People like to help one another simply for the act of giving and doing something nice for others. People will undertake effort and work for their own reward and as a display of their love for others and for humanity. That is a natural human instinct and it is why humanity has advanced, not regressed.


A UBI that still encourages people to work can help us advance, but not any more than that.


The problem with capitalism is that it eats itself. OK? I'll explain: Capitalism always seeks to improve profits for the holders of capital. ROI. It's all about the ROI. Toward that end, labor is continually targeted for cuts. Any means may be employed to reduce labor. Offshoring, automation, systems engineering, efficiency improvement, etc. As time goes by, fewer and fewer workers are employed. That is great for profits but it does not address the other side of the capitalism equation. Sure, it's great to reduce the cost of providing products and services, but somebody has to buy those products and services. The same workers that capitalism is cutting the income of, are the potential buyers of products and services.

As capitalism makes profiteering more efficient, it destroys it's own market. That's why capitalism always eats itself. Henry Ford understood this problem. If there is nobody who can afford to buy your products then there is no point in building them, and you won't make any money.


You're assuming that capitalism doesn't grow the "pie", so to speak. Economics are not zero-sum. As technology advances, so does productivity. The pie gets bigger, and each worker potentially has access to a bigger piece of pie, even if their proportion of the overall pie can be smaller. We've seen this in the development of every successful capitalism.


Socialism and wealth redistribution can help with that. Actually, it is necessary. Capitalism is destined to fizzle out without socialism to support it. Once most of the wealth has been transferred into a very small segment of society, and most of society essentially has no wealth, no buying power, and is rendered unable to buy anything. Then the capitalist market collapses. Wealth redistribution ensures that there will always be a market for capitalism. Equitable wealth redistribution ensures that the common masses always have buying power, and the opportunity to achieve great wealth and grand dream fulfillment. It is that hope of upward mobility which motivates ambitious people to strive and achieve great things which benefit society.


Some public amenities make sense, but they should have discrete limits.
 
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