Life After Death? Get real.

froggie said:
The answer is apparent, you are a human who thinks they have answers and they don't!

You can refuse science, but in the end, it seeks answers and doesn't assume it has the truth.

People are not stupid, they are afraid, they are fearful of the future and what the unknown holds and if they are told that there is something that can save them from every fear and pain they ever had, well, most of them have to take that and count on the eye in the sky because they are not secure enough to know that this is life and there is no one to save you, no miracles, otherwise, a human could re-grow their missing limbs. There is just us and nature and the consequences of life.

I have no fear of dying, I have no fear of life. I take it as it comes and I laugh at people who tell me they know, because they are clinging to their gods in the same way a morphine addict hangs on to his drugs and by the way, the higher power, sec, drug, gambling, all the impulses are triggered in the same area of the braid as GOD! Maybe that is why the twelve step program works so well, they get you off drugs and get you hooked on the higher power!

The only thing I count on in this world is myself, my loved ones and my friends and the other altruistic people in this world that believes like me.

We are the ones who don't wait for the government to show up after or before a disaster, we are the ones out there helping others, because we know in the long run, life and other humans and this Earth are all we have and I honor and love and respect that, not some god made up by other people.

If you feel the need for a god, go ahead, it isn't me.
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Damn good post Froggie!
 
froggie said:
The answer is apparent, you are a human who thinks they have answers and they don't!

You can refuse science, but in the end, it seeks answers and doesn't assume it has the truth.

People are not stupid, they are afraid, they are fearful of the future and what the unknown holds and if they are told that there is something that can save them from every fear and pain they ever had, well, most of them have to take that and count on the eye in the sky because they are not secure enough to know that this is life and there is no one to save you, no miracles, otherwise, a human could re-grow their missing limbs. There is just us and nature and the consequences of life.

I have no fear of dying, I have no fear of life. I take it as it comes and I laugh at people who tell me they know, because they are clinging to their gods in the same way a morphine addict hangs on to his drugs and by the way, the higher power, sec, drug, gambling, all the impulses are triggered in the same area of the braid as GOD! Maybe that is why the twelve step program works so well, they get you off drugs and get you hooked on the higher power!

The only thing I count on in this world is myself, my loved ones and my friends and the other altruistic people in this world that believes like me.

We are the ones who don't wait for the government to show up after or before a disaster, we are the ones out there helping others, because we know in the long run, life and other humans and this Earth are all we have and I honor and love and respect that, not some god made up by other people.

If you feel the need for a god, go ahead, it isn't me.
Click to expand...

You know it's a sign of trouble when usidiot says "damn good post!" :rolleyes:

You can refuse science, but in the end, it seeks answers and doesn't assume it has the truth.

I haven't refused science, but all too often, people who have chosen to worship science instead of their Creator, will assume science is the whole truth and nothing more shall be added. Too often, it doesn't seek answers, it is used to prop up theories and ideas as fact, and then used as a weapon against religious belief.

You argue that people are "fearful of the unknown" although, you yourself, live without fear. I assume you believe the rest of the world to be weaker than you, in this 'fearlessness' you have. That could explain why 95% of them choose to worship a higher power. The rest of the human population is just not as secure as Froggie!

The only thing I count on in this world is myself, my loved ones and my friends and the other altruistic people in this world that believes like me........... because we know in the long run, life and other humans and this Earth are all we have and I honor and love and respect that

So you really don't give a shit about helping people in need, if they don't forsake God like you do? Unless they choose to believe that YOU are their savior, the one who is going to help them, you aren't really interested in the idea.

You are right... non-spiritual people do not "count on" anything or anyone, but themselves. They are totally and completely in love with themselves! Aside from themselves, the things which matter most are, their immediate family, and those who think as they do.... their buddies.

If you feel the need for a god, go ahead, it isn't me.

See? In your pathetic little self-absorbed world, where you are #1, you assume this thread is somehow about ME trying to get YOU to accept religion! I merely responded to the thread topic, and was drawn in to a conversation about spirituality with you. I don't care if you "find God" or anything else, sugar! You can "believe" whatever you wish, I am not here to change your mind or convince you of anything. I just wanted to interject the truth in here, and if you see it, great! I made the simple comment that it seems mankind is irretrievably tied to spirituality... and from that, I get every crackpot Atheist on the site, firing away at me, being paranoid about how I phrase things, wanting... itching.. to start an argument on something...

I tell ya... it's pretty amazing for such "secure" people to act that way!
 
...if they are told that there is something that can save them from every fear and pain they ever had, well, most of them have to take that and count on the eye in the sky because they are not secure enough to know that this is life and there is no one to save you, no miracles, otherwise, a human could re-grow their missing limbs. There is just us and nature and the consequences of life.
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You spoke earlier about "answering questions" and I think it is important for us to explore further, why humans are so profoundly connected to spiritual faith. Even you, admitted you have a "spiritual life" and "feel connected to something" ...so this must at least compel you to think, most people might have the same sort of feeling in their own way. But your posts sound as if you have some resentment against people of a particular faith, who may have made you uncomfortable, or made you feel as though you were being judged by them. Spirituality has nothing to do with blame or judgment, and it doesn't matter if other humans judge you. It is your personal connection with your Creator, that's all that matters.

I can be happy without God! This is a prime example of how non-spiritually-connected people can envision spiritual connection, and it is about personal happiness. While strong spiritual connection often brings happiness, that is not the reason to maintain a spiritual connection, there are much quicker and easier (and more fun) ways to be happy.

From what I observe, it tends to give the individual confidence and strength to face challenges. I know a guy... great fella... been friends for 15 years now... He told me his life story once, and it just amazed me. He literally came from the gutter, addicted to heroin, and alcohol. He will tell you without batting an eye, it was "God" who got him through it. He couldn't have ever done it alone. Now, he isn't some Bible-thumping Saint teaching youth sunday school class at the First Baptist! He's just normal like most people, goes to church sometimes, and doesn't ever 'preach' to anyone about anything.

This is just one example in my personal life, there are several others, all following the same pattern... people who's lives were changed through their spiritual faith. Now, earlier you indicated I think I know everything... what I know, is what I know. I have heard the testimonials to faith, from people who weren't trying to sell me. Whether there is anything to their "skygod" or not, it does seem to help them overcome major adversity in life. Based on the limited number of stories I personal know of, I would estimate there must be millions of people, at least, who have such a story.

Why do you think that is the case?

Are these people suffering from some mass hallucination?

Why do they attribute the strength to overcome [whatever], to God... and not to themselves?

You want "proof" there is a God? I can't give you that, but you can find the answer.
 
Dixie said:
Not so fast, Skippy... The Neanderthals didn't have ceremonial rituals to bury their dead. At least not that we've ever discovered. All Neanderthal archeology suggests they had no connection to spirituality.

The act of burial is, by its nature, spiritual, it is also ceremonial in as much as there would have been a procedure and a designed outcome which would have been repeated. Animals, generally speaking, do not bury their dead, nor do they revere them. There is also evidence to suggest the beginnings of sharmanism amongst Neaderthals in the display of animal bones, particularly their skulls.

See now... This is an opinion, and you are entitled to it, but it doesn't make it truth.

Not an opinion.

Again, more of your 'empirical' opinion here.



I'm glad you agree that humans are more comfortable believing in a higher power, I think that is an important to remember, because biology teaches that every behavioral characteristic of any living thing, is with reason and purpose.



Does 95% of the population do this?

At least 95% of some major populations do this. Be careful, your American parochialism is showing.

Nope... vast majority of humans do not believe in superstitions. Ants are not 'organized' to build an ant hill, they instinctively know how to do this. In that regard, yes, humans are also instinctively inclined to worship something.

Humans are instinctively inclined to ask questions and seek answers. Supernatural belief is part of this. As I said above.




You've not really contributed anything to this debate except your opinion. Information gleaned from archeology shows a profound connection between mankind and spirituality. One in which you admit is natural and comfortable for man.

No one would deny that archeology has discovered connections with mankind and spirituality. See above.

Yes, indeed there was. What was the purpose of burying their Pharaoh's inside the pyramids with enormous amounts of treasure and material wealth? It seems a little ridiculous to think they just though "what the hell..." doesn't it? I am thinking maybe this had something to do with what they sought to achieve for their ruler in the afterlife? Fact is, they sure as hell went to great extreme to please something.
Click to expand...

They could have buried or stored their dead with any artifacts they believed might be useful anywhere. The pyramids and the other Egyptian tombs were symbols of power. There is no argument about that.
That ancient man believed in gods and demons is no proof that they were right in their beliefs. If you wish to believe that ancient beliefs and ignorances have a direct bearing on modern spirituality then, obviously, I cannot stop you, nor would I wish to.
 
I think a belief that in some way you are special because you believe in a god or gods is the ultimate arrogance.
That somehow you above all other living things are deserving of a special place and that another life has been reserved for you carries with it a conceit that is, if nothing else, unchristian.
It is also illustrative of a refusal to see that god was made by 'priests' in their image and to serve their ends.
But, you will follow. You will raise your arms and sing and chant and believe that, by doing so, you will win a ticket to heaven and it will comfort you. Good.



Dixie said:
You know it's a sign of trouble when usidiot says "damn good post!" :rolleyes:

You can refuse science, but in the end, it seeks answers and doesn't assume it has the truth.

I haven't refused science, but all too often, people who have chosen to worship science instead of their Creator, will assume science is the whole truth and nothing more shall be added. Too often, it doesn't seek answers, it is used to prop up theories and ideas as fact, and then used as a weapon against religious belief.

You argue that people are "fearful of the unknown" although, you yourself, live without fear. I assume you believe the rest of the world to be weaker than you, in this 'fearlessness' you have. That could explain why 95% of them choose to worship a higher power. The rest of the human population is just not as secure as Froggie!

The only thing I count on in this world is myself, my loved ones and my friends and the other altruistic people in this world that believes like me........... because we know in the long run, life and other humans and this Earth are all we have and I honor and love and respect that

So you really don't give a shit about helping people in need, if they don't forsake God like you do? Unless they choose to believe that YOU are their savior, the one who is going to help them, you aren't really interested in the idea.

You are right... non-spiritual people do not "count on" anything or anyone, but themselves. They are totally and completely in love with themselves! Aside from themselves, the things which matter most are, their immediate family, and those who think as they do.... their buddies.

If you feel the need for a god, go ahead, it isn't me.

See? In your pathetic little self-absorbed world, where you are #1, you assume this thread is somehow about ME trying to get YOU to accept religion! I merely responded to the thread topic, and was drawn in to a conversation about spirituality with you. I don't care if you "find God" or anything else, sugar! You can "believe" whatever you wish, I am not here to change your mind or convince you of anything. I just wanted to interject the truth in here, and if you see it, great! I made the simple comment that it seems mankind is irretrievably tied to spirituality... and from that, I get every crackpot Atheist on the site, firing away at me, being paranoid about how I phrase things, wanting... itching.. to start an argument on something...

I tell ya... it's pretty amazing for such "secure" people to act that way!
Click to expand...
 
froggie said:
Human are born with it. I would like to see your evidence for this claim.

It is a learned behavior as are most modern human behaviors, with the exception of our baser animal instincts, eating, drinking. breathing and having sex.

The number of synapsis in the brain and the protein is the difference between species and advanced thinking or it is the latest theory being advanced by science.

And I am sorry, I disagree with your theory that man believes in God because he is designed that way.


a child raised apart will not speak and it will not serve a god. It acts more like an animal. It is a learned behavior.

Modern man is one thing, we are still evolving, do you know what humans were like at the time the co-existed with Neanderthal? They were nothing like modern man.

Modern man is actually moving away from the idea of a believe in a God. Our mind is evolving and superstitions are being replaced by knowledge.

Thunder is not the gods throwing each other around, as was believed at one time in human history, also.
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There is a book out called "The God Part of the Mind" (I think that was it) that showed it was hardwired into people to seek out such stuff.

The book was written by an atheist scientist dude and Dixie likely wouldn't like it, but it proves his point nicely. Humans are hardwired to believe stuff like this.
 
Damocles said:
There is a book out called "The God Part of the Mind" (I think that was it) that showed it was hardwired into people to seek out such stuff.

The book was written by an atheist scientist dude and Dixie likely wouldn't like it, but it proves his point nicely. Humans are hardwired to believe stuff like this.
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the book or person you're referring to, but I can say fairly confidently that we just don't know enough yet to make that claim. The parts of the brain that may be associated with religious belief and/or what is termed spirituality may indeed have been identified, as are many other processes. It is entirely possible, however, in fact if it's cortical it's more likely, that this is the result of external influences, i.e. learning, than what the person termed "hard-wiring".
 
Thorn said:
I'm not familiar with the book or person you're referring to, but I can say fairly confidently that we just don't know enough yet to make that claim. The parts of the brain that may be associated with religious belief and/or what is termed spirituality may indeed have been identified, as are many other processes. It is entirely possible, however, in fact if it's cortical it's more likely, that this is the result of external influences, i.e. learning, than what the person termed "hard-wiring".
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I attribute people's belief in a God to two things.

First, I doubt we're alone in the universe. I think visits in the distant past started the idea of a God. From the building of the pyramids to the Mayan's being able to predict lunar eclipses 1500 years into the future, within an accuracy of minutes, it seems unlikely it was just natural, mental evolution.

The second reason is many people experience unexplained happenings which may be completely natural but we are not presently aware of how they work. For example, psychic ability....or a person cancelling a ticket for a plane that ultimately crashes....or phoning a family member "feeling" something happened....
 
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/God-Gene-Faith-Hardwired-Genes/dp/0385500580"]Amazon.com: The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes: Dean H. Hamer: Books[/ame]

Its called the god gene.
 
apple0154 said:
I attribute people's belief in a God to two things.

First, I doubt we're alone in the universe. I think visits in the distant past started the idea of a God. From the building of the pyramids to the Mayan's being able to predict lunar eclipses 1500 years into the future, within an accuracy of minutes, it seems unlikely it was just natural, mental evolution.

The second reason is many people experience unexplained happenings which may be completely natural but we are not presently aware of how they work. For example, psychic ability....or a person cancelling a ticket for a plane that ultimately crashes....or phoning a family member "feeling" something happened....
Click to expand...


You could be right, I think if there is anything beyond what we know about life it is within a scientific explaination that we just dont understand yet.
 
Damocles said:
Everybody is an appropriate representative of God. All things that live are part of God.
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which god, I don't want to be a part of the crazy one in the Old Testament.

I like Venus, the goddess on the mountain top...
 
apple0154 said:
I attribute people's belief in a God to two things.

First, I doubt we're alone in the universe. I think visits in the distant past started the idea of a God. From the building of the pyramids to the Mayan's being able to predict lunar eclipses 1500 years into the future, within an accuracy of minutes, it seems unlikely it was just natural, mental evolution.

The second reason is many people experience unexplained happenings which may be completely natural but we are not presently aware of how they work. For example, psychic ability....or a person cancelling a ticket for a plane that ultimately crashes....or phoning a family member "feeling" something happened....
Click to expand...

There are many things we don't understand, nor can we explain. I once made the analogy, we are like infants in a crib, in a darkened room. We are aware of what's in the crib, we see a vast dark space 'out there' but we have no clue as to what is outside the room. We have looked around our crib and found some things, and formed some ideas of what might be 'out there' but we really just don't know and can't comprehend it.

"Visits in the distant past" is an intriguing theory indeed! Also known as the "Ancient Aliens" theory, it proposes that an alien civilization perhaps visited us centuries ago. It's not without some merit, imagine a civilization just 10,000 years more advanced than our own? Maybe from a similar type planet, which wasn't bombarded as much by meteors, and managed to jump way ahead of us in technology... it's entirely possible. What IF they visited the Earth in the "cave man" days, and realized we were just not far enough along to grasp the physics, etc.? Perhaps... they would give us some rudimentary guidelines to follow? Maybe check back in on us every now and then, to see how we're progressing? This would explain a lot.
 
Lowaicue said:
They could have buried or stored their dead with any artifacts they believed might be useful anywhere. The pyramids and the other Egyptian tombs were symbols of power. There is no argument about that.
That ancient man believed in gods and demons is no proof that they were right in their beliefs. If you wish to believe that ancient beliefs and ignorances have a direct bearing on modern spirituality then, obviously, I cannot stop you, nor would I wish to.
Click to expand...

The tombs we've opened in the pyramids contain enormous amounts of gold, jewelry and precious gems, what would have amounted to a great fortune in those days. My understanding is, the people of Egypt believed the level of heaven for their ruler depended on how much wealth he took with him in the afterlife. This was the purpose of erecting a massive pyramid, precisely aligned astronomically, and then filled with treasures and sealed upon the ruler's death, with his remains.

We're not debating whether ancient man's beliefs were right or wrong, we are debating that ancient men had strong fundamental spiritual beliefs, and much of their lives revolved around them. I think I've made my case, and so far, nothing you've said has refuted that. You keep trying to twist my comments into some kind of mandate for Christianity or something, and we're having a simple debate about mankind's connection to spirituality.

If you wish to be ignorant of history, ignorant of the facts, and ignorant of the truth, I can't stop you, nor would I wish to.... (see how easy that works both ways?)
 
Damocles said:
There is a book out called "The God Part of the Mind" (I think that was it) that showed it was hardwired into people to seek out such stuff.

The book was written by an atheist scientist dude and Dixie likely wouldn't like it, but it proves his point nicely. Humans are hardwired to believe stuff like this.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will look into it, sounds like my cup of tea!
 
I think the main difference is that you tend towards the idea that 'spiritualism' is intrinsic whereas I, and most historians, accept it as extrinsic and part of the manipulation process by the powerful over the weak.
Incidentally you might like to look at the temples at Luxor and the tomb of Ramesis II in the valley of the kings before ascribing magic to the pyramids.


Dixie said:
The tombs we've opened in the pyramids contain enormous amounts of gold, jewelry and precious gems, what would have amounted to a great fortune in those days. My understanding is, the people of Egypt believed the level of heaven for their ruler depended on how much wealth he took with him in the afterlife. This was the purpose of erecting a massive pyramid, precisely aligned astronomically, and then filled with treasures and sealed upon the ruler's death, with his remains.

We're not debating whether ancient man's beliefs were right or wrong, we are debating that ancient men had strong fundamental spiritual beliefs, and much of their lives revolved around them. I think I've made my case, and so far, nothing you've said has refuted that. You keep trying to twist my comments into some kind of mandate for Christianity or something, and we're having a simple debate about mankind's connection to spirituality.

If you wish to be ignorant of history, ignorant of the facts, and ignorant of the truth, I can't stop you, nor would I wish to.... (see how easy that works both ways?)
Click to expand...
 
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