ZenMode
Well-known member
Ok. What part of what I said do you disagree with? In order to decide who's saved and who's not, there has to be judging, doesn't there?
LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching
- Thread starter Alter2Ego
- Start date
There is a "lake of fire" though it is reserved for those who get the "Mark of the Beast" during the tribulations in Revelations. The main issue is the Book of Enoch was removed from the canon for some reason that I find slightly confusing considering Jesus referenced the book in the New Testament. The Book of Enoch had a good description of Hell, and it was not all brimstone and fire.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
Yakuda:
A parable is a fictitious story; therefore, it is not the same as an analogy despite the fact they are synonyms.
Definition of Parable:
"A parable (pronounced PAIR-uh-bull) is a short story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. It comes from a Greek word meaning "comparison."
Parable: Definition and Examples | LiteraryTerms.net
Clear definition and great examples of Parable. This article will show you the importance of Parable and how to use it. A parable is a short story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.
literaryterms.net
Definition of Analogy:
a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea:
analogy
1. a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help…
dictionary.cambridge.org
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus at Luke 16:19-31 is a parable because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. If you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
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Alter2Ego
Verified User
Damocles:
Neither the lake of fire nor hell are literal when used in the Bible. They are considered symbolic language when one pays attention to their context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters within the same Bible book where those particular statements appear.)
Alter2Ego
Verified User
ZenMode:
Scripture says we will be judged by Almighty God for our actions. It says nothing about literal hellfire torment.
Romans 14:10
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.Romans 14:11
For it is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’”Romans 14:12
So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
ZenMode:
The lake of fire is not literal; it's symbolic language that refers to permanent death from which there will be no resurrection. I can show you why it is not literal, if you're interested in allowing the Bible to be the authority.
ZenMode
Well-known member
What makes you believe it's not meant to be a literal lake of fire?
Also, I was wrong about the OT referencing the lake of fire. It was Jesus in the NT only, I believe.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
Damocles:
Really? Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable you say? Then why is Jesus using the words "sheep" and "goats"?
Alter2Ego
Verified User
Because the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters) says it's not literal. Notice the Bible quotation below:
Revelation 20:14
And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.QUESTION: Can death and the Grave literally be hurled into fire and burned up?
ZenMode
Well-known member
We're getting off topic here, but I don't think you're interpreting that verse correctly. What does Revelation 20:14 mean?
What's described in verses 14 and 15 is nothing less than the final, complete accomplishment of total victory over sin. The judgment is complete. Now Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers spend their lives following the will of the Devil. Ephesians 2:1–3 reminds Christians that prior to salvation they were dead in trespasses and sins. Sins characterized their lives, and they followed Satan, the prince of the power of the air. Also, they lived in the passions of the sin nature and were the children of wrath. However, in a remarkable act of love, God showed mercy and saved by grace, turning their wicked lifestyle into a beautiful life style (Ephesians 2:4–10).
This verse in Revelation calls the lake of fire "the second death." The first death is physical. Upon death, the soul is separated from the body, and the unbeliever continues to be separated from God. At the second death, the resurrected body is joined to the soul and both are separated from God for all eternity. At this point in time, all sin and evil has been judged and punished: either in hell or by the sacrificial blood of Christ (John 3:16–18).
What does Revelation 20:14 mean? | BibleRef.com
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. - What is the meaning of Revelation 20:14?
www.bibleref.com
Obtenebrator
Verified User
Bart Ehrman wrote a book called "Heaven and Hell" that attempts to frame the development of the concept of "hell" and even the "afterlife" in Christian thought. It sounds a lot like these concepts came in as the world of Judea became more Hellenized during the Roman colony era. The various concepts of an afterlife seem to be more Greek inspired than anything from the traditions of the Jewish people who generally seem to lack an afterlife (although there are a few cases where spirits are raised in the OT).
It's an interesting read and always an interesting thing to see the evolution of religious faith.
Obtenebrator
Verified User
The concept of "Hell" is also something that many people feel they "need" in their religious beliefs. For instance: another poster who claims to be agnostic still feels that atheistic belief systems which lack any sort of "ultimate justice" for evil doers like Stalin or Hitler makes that philosophy "unappealing" to them.
It is not an uncommon feeling. Everyone wants revenge on those they feel are truly evil, so it would stand to reason that building that into a religious philosophy would be appealing to some people.
It is not an uncommon feeling. Everyone wants revenge on those they feel are truly evil, so it would stand to reason that building that into a religious philosophy would be appealing to some people.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
No, we're very much on topic. I asked you a question that you are now refusing to answer. The answer is either "YES" or "NO." Below is the Bible quotation again, followed by the question.We're getting off topic here, but I don't think you're interpreting that verse correctly. What does Revelation 20:14 mean?
What's described in verses 14 and 15 is nothing less than the final, complete accomplishment of total victory over sin. The judgment is complete. Now Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers spend their lives following the will of the Devil. Ephesians 2:1–3 reminds Christians that prior to salvation they were dead in trespasses and sins. Sins characterized their lives, and they followed Satan, the prince of the power of the air. Also, they lived in the passions of the sin nature and were the children of wrath. However, in a remarkable act of love, God showed mercy and saved by grace, turning their wicked lifestyle into a beautiful life style (Ephesians 2:4–10).
This verse in Revelation calls the lake of fire "the second death." The first death is physical. Upon death, the soul is separated from the body, and the unbeliever continues to be separated from God. At the second death, the resurrected body is joined to the soul and both are separated from God for all eternity. At this point in time, all sin and evil has been judged and punished: either in hell or by the sacrificial blood of Christ (John 3:16–18).
What does Revelation 20:14 mean? | BibleRef.com
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. - What is the meaning of Revelation 20:14?www.bibleref.com
Revelation 20:14
And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.QUESTION: Can death and the Grave literally be hurled into fire and burned up? YES or NO.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
Obtenebrator:
Fortunately, literal hellfire torment is not supported by scripture in Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I have yet to find anyone that can show me a scripture in the Bible that supports the dogma.
Because he used sheep and goats often, this isn't the only time those are used to describe these subsets of humans... The goats are the ones who are judged wanting, the sheep are his flock. He often speaks of the congregation as his sheep and himself as the shepherd. This isn't difficult to understand. He begins with parables, but ends talking about the lesson he was working towards, judgement and reward.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
Damocles:
Since you insist Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable but instead is a true story, suppose you explain to the rest of us the following verses; and remember, this is Jesus talking.
Matthew 25:35
For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;Matthew 25:36
naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’QUESTION: When was Jesus ever hungry or thirsty or naked or sick or in prison--up to the point he gave that parable?
ZenMode
Well-known member
In the way you are interpreting it, no, but that is only your interpretation.
Jesus, according to Matthew 13:24-43, doesn’t agree with you:
“The weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire. It will be the same at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will find the people who cause sin and all those who do evil. The angels will take those people out of his kingdom.
Alter2Ego
Verified User
ZenMode:
Matthew 13:24-43 is a parable. The very first verse in that series announces that it is a parable aka fictitious story that is used by Jesus to make a point.
New International Version
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. (Matthew 13:24)
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Forgive the question, but does it matter how the Creator tortures people for all eternity? Is He somehow not a sadist if the literal flames are converted to some other form of torture?
Forgive the question, but how does this pertain to Christians who don't believe that the Creator punishes for wrongdoings during the relatively brief human lifespan, but instead punishes for not believing at the tail end of the relatively brief human lifespan?